Ode to Butches

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.

At least I'm not hypocritical about it.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

lol, and femmes.

Damn, I thought we were going to get back on track with odes and then I saw your reply to Metropolis, but you are correct, it is being continued by butches and femmes.

I'm beginning to think like someone else here, that this thread is a sabotage *shocked*. I need to walk away awhile. My fingers are getting raw,, lol.

I agree with you completely on IDs hinging on the negative or 'what I'm not', but, and please humor me here, if asked whether I like something or not, my reply may include what I don't like and why. If I simply tell you it is because I am butch, is that enough? I could list 100 positive reasons, but 5 negative ones will explain it best.

Hudson, my being a woman or female doesn't automatically place me in a category of those who find attraction by bio males flattering or validating. To presuppose that would initially is insulting .... not by the bio male flattery, but by expecting it. If a bio male were to come up to me and say, 'you know what, sexy? you've got a nice ass'. I'm not going to respond nicely. That's just me. Maybe you would respond nicely and thank him.

Maybe it's the historical expectation of 'being the nice female'. Maybe it's the bio male expectation that they can say just about anything to a woman and it's laughed off or she is expected to make lemonade out of lemons. I don't do it, out there or here. If I do it to someone else, then they can chew my head off for it and I will learn and understand better. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[weatherboi]

I don't ID as butch. I think this is really nice!!! Nice gift for the butches!!

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

What I love most about a butch is...

I love the dichotomy of a butch...
Something with seemingly contradictory qualities...
Your female body with that masculine strut.
Your yang balancing my yin.
Your hardness and your softness.
Your roughness with your gentleness.
Your making love to me with a cock while knowing every part of my body like your own.
Being in a woman's body and wearing men's clothing. And looking better than they do in them.
Your strong protective arms holding my hand that is smaller like yours.
The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. Then smelling freshly showered cooking your favorite recipe for us.
Playing pool with your friends for the afternoon and that evening... helping me paint my toenails and choosing me a color knowing the importance of it matching my lipstick.
Wanting to watch monday night football and not being afraid to cry when your team looses. LOL
Comfortable only in your boots. Yet also willing to wear a pair of my sandals in a pinch< that fit you perfectly> to run out to the store to get me my favorite icecream.
You often have a selective memory yet you remember my favorite icecream, flowers, and our anniversary a month before it even comes up.
The way you say to me "honey I know just what your going through" once a month and truly do.
The way you willingly will allow me to test a perfume on you I want to smell in a store... yet I ran out of room on my own body to still smell anything.
The way you let me hold a pair of earrings or a purse or an outfit up to you to see what it will look like on me and men walking by us looking at you and thinking "poor guy."
The way you ignore any whispers or laughter at us together as your eyes glance at his crotch and you laugh back thinking "at least I get to choose my size"
The way men don't look twice at us while you pull out my chair for me and open doors.
The way you actually take as long or longer then me to get ready to go out sometimes
and I am the one saying "honey you look fine."
The way you respect your part of our closet...all 12 hangers.
I love a butch for all of this and so much more...
But what I love the most about you...Is your like having the best of both genders all in one package<g> Emotionally, mentally, and physically I can relate to you.
And I never have to remind you to put down the toilet seat!

Written by me
From my heart.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

But they'll have you! .

[Kim]

I couldn't identify with the original author's "ode to butches." While some of the sentiments rang true to me, it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known. Plus, I don't think it's necessary to insult femmes to get your point across about why you love butches so much. Really, is it hard to see into the soul of a femme because we are wearing "tons" of makeup? A sporty femme can't have big muscles? Don't like our pouty lips and other "signs" of femme (whatever that means)?

I also think it's difficult to do an "ode to butches" because the group is just so big and diverse. Now an "ode to" one particular butch, that would be a different story and I would read with great interest.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

But they'll have you! .

I am only responsible for my own bad behavior.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Love this post.

And Martha's attention to detail - right with you there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

I've only seen so obvious an elitism expressed around our (denied) "hierarchies" whenever femmes pat-pat and welcome transwomen into their spaces with that little discomfort they try to hide behind their eyes and under their voices.

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[SuperFemme]

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

[BullDog]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking.

[Cyclopea]

Now THAT'S a beautiful "ode"!
Thank you for sharing this Feminine Allure.

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

What I love most about a butch is...

I love the dichotomy of a butch...
Something with seemingly contradictory qualities...
Your female body with that masculine strut.
Your yang balancing my yin.
Your hardness and your softness.
Your roughness with your gentleness.
Your making love to me with a cock while knowing every part of my body like your own.
Being in a woman's body and wearing men's clothing. And looking better than they do in them.
Your strong protective arms holding my hand that is smaller like yours.
The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. Then smelling freshly showered cooking your favorite recipe for us.
Playing pool with your friends for the afternoon and that evening... helping me paint my toenails and choosing me a color knowing the importance of it matching my lipstick.
Wanting to watch monday night football and not being afraid to cry when your team looses. LOL
Comfortable only in your boots. Yet also willing to wear a pair of my sandals in a pinch< that fit you perfectly> to run out to the store to get me my favorite icecream.
You often have a selective memory yet you remember my favorite icecream, flowers, and our anniversary a month before it even comes up.
The way you say to me "honey I know just what your going through" once a month and truly do.
The way you willingly will allow me to test a perfume on you I want to smell in a store... yet I ran out of room on my own body to still smell anything.
The way you let me hold a pair of earrings or a purse or an outfit up to you to see what it will look like on me and men walking by us looking at you and thinking "poor guy."
The way you ignore any whispers or laughter at us together as your eyes glance at his crotch and you laugh back thinking "at least I get to choose my size"
The way men don't look twice at us while you pull out my chair for me and open doors.
The way you actually take as long or longer then me to get ready to go out sometimes
and I am the one saying "honey you look fine."
The way you respect your part of our closet...all 12 hangers.
I love a butch for all of this and so much more...
But what I love the most about you...Is your like having the best of both genders all in one package<g> Emotionally, mentally, and physically I can relate to you.
And I never have to remind you to put down the toilet seat!

Written by me
From my heart.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't through that crap at me. It's not sticking.

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.

No problem and yes you would be right that it does come from ONE person and ONE person only views.

I thought maybe some linkage may help is all