Lesbian bed death?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Red highlighted statement - Did someone say that here? Yes, I agree that this would be a bit ludicrous to think. After all, females do desire sex. Side note, females have testosterone, too, just less of it than males.

Less testosterone does not mean that we are "less than" because we are female people. Dapper is just stating a fact. Men and women are not physiologically identical. We are allowed to have problems and strengths that are ours and ours alone.

I agree that sexual desire can be affected by many factors, such as health of the relationship as well as the health of those in the relationship.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't agree with the part in bold. It's a generalization. As you yourself said, there is individual variation.

I get real, real tired of the perpetuation of stereotypes of lesbians and women that I see here almost daily. Real, real tired. Now I am going to go take a few aspirin and go do something else.

Ok. I was actually about to post that I am off to bed. Good night.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

so if female/female are having less sex to begin with, it makes sense that it could drop to zero, especially if there are problems in the relationship.

When I read this I read it as having emphasis on a couple of words, which altered my interpretation of your statement. It altered it into something that, to me, makes sense.

I have bolded the words that I emphasized for convenience.

If 1 then 2.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by betenoire

When I read this I read it as having emphasis on a couple of words, which altered my interpretation of your statement. It altered it into something that, to me, makes sense.

I have bolded the words that I emphasized for convenience.

If 1 then 2.

Thanks, bete. That is helpful and maybe makes my thinking, and intentions, more clear.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Thanks, bete. That is helpful and maybe makes my thinking, and intentions, more clear.

I am awesome that way, even though I don't produce as much testosterone as my father does.

[BullDog]

Why is there the term "Lesbian Bed Death" to begin with? It's a perpetuation of lesbian stereotypes.

I really don't care if there are biological differences. If males overall do desire to have sex more frequently than females based on biology it wouldn't make them better or less human beings- I get that Suebee. I don't really trust the studies and how they are framed, and my personal experience does not bear it out that males want sex more than females. It doesn't make a difference to me whether it's true or not. If Lesbian A wants to have sex more than Lesbian B it doesn't make Lesbian A a better person or a better lesbian either. If Lesbian A and B are a couple, then it could be a problem.

What makes a difference to me is the perpetuation of stereotypes and always comparing women's sexuality with men's.

This idea if lesbians have less sex to begin with (I don't agree with that) that if they are having problems in their relationship that their sex life is going to go to zero makes no sense to me. Lesbians don't just all of a sudden go sexless if they are having relationship problems. I do agree that any couple- whether they are lesbians or not- if they are having problems in their relationship outside the bedroom that their sex life will probably suffer as well.

Lesbian sex is not dependent on men. Even in the individual circumstances where a lesbian is sleeping with a man, in those cases her sexual agency is still her own. So why are we comparing lesbian sex to how much or less men want to have sex to begin with?

Lesbian sex is not defined by men or male standards.

Women's sexuality is just that- women's sexuality. Again, not dependent on men even for those who are sexuality attracted to men.

And yeah, I'm confused why people who are not lesbians are telling lesbians what their sexuality is like and how we have sex less than men. It doesn't matter either way, our sexuality doesn't need to be discussed in male terms. It's irrelevant.

[citybutch]

Perhaps I am too tired... but I see nothing in this article that indicates:

"Most frequent to least frequent sex (many studies show)

1) male/male

2) female/male

3) female/female "

What I do see is that mens libido's are more active than females and females sexuality is more fluid... neither of which indicates gay men have longer lasting sexual relationships (and more frequent) than lesbians.... It just says we express it differently...

What I found on Google... (which is by no means scientific)... is something more along the lines of:

"In biology and psychology, the Coolidge effect is a phenomenon—seen in nearly every mammalian species in which it has been tested—whereby both males and females exhibit continuous high sexual performance given the introduction of new receptive partners" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

...that, in fact, reduced sexual activity is common with all types of couples.. The one study that I found that talked about Lesbian Bed Death and claimed the above "hierarchy" of sexual activity was highly criticized....

The fact is... no matter what kind of relationship one is in... intimacy is hard to maintain when so much of life such as work, career, school, stress, homeownership, children, family concerns, finances, etc etc etc... comes to the forefront. Any one of us can maintain a high level of sexual stimulation when we are in the initial first stages of knowing someone... Prolonged ongoing intimacy takes commitment... and yes, sometimes work... It means taking the relationship seriously enough to prioritize intimacy ... and discovering ways to express it.

Hollywood sells us a load of goods... "falling in love and living happily ever after.." You know, the story where the young couple is highly energized and magnetized towards each other... and then the movie ends with them walking into bliss... forever after. In fact, it really isn't that way at all... It takes focus, patience, strategy, respect, communication, love, and a mutual awareness that intimacy is important to both of you... and that you are both exactly where you want to be... Almost everyone I know in real time is in a long term relationship... and whether they are straight, gay, lesbian, or otherwise identified, we all talk about this the same way... and yes, we do discuss it with our gay male friends as well...

Originally Posted by DapperButch

http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/se...-women-compare

Not tough to find. The first one google came up with.

But, who cares, anyway? Meaning, it isn't a BAD thing if that is the case. It is ok if there truly is some differences between the sexes based on biology. I think that so many of us (me included), spend a lot of time trying to prove their is no differences, as if that is a bad thing.

And getting back to the topic, certainly not all women have a lower sex drive than all men. It is individual. But as a whole, yes... men tend to desire sex more often and have more sex than women do. Is this truly new for people?

Do you think that transmen are lying when they say that their sex drive went up after starting testosterone? Do you think this is just all in their heads or something?

[BullDog]

Yes there is one study about "Lesbian Bed Death" that got a lot of press and it has been heavily criticized for how it was conducted.

I know many gay male couples who are completely monogamous and have been together for many, many years- goes against the stereotype I know.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Lesbian bed death has been called a myth by some, and been experienced as a reality by others.

But what is it really and what causes us to lose sexual interest? I am not referring to the peaks and flows that occur in sex in relationships. I am asking what has a negative impact on our willingness to be sexual with someone while in a relationship with them.

In my experience, a deteriorating sexual relationship is mirroring a failing personal relationship. Hard to feel sexual when the relationship isnt working for you the way it used to. And sometimes it is hard to know if that is a correctable problem or an uncorrectable one.

Medical/physical problems, stress, and other things can contribute to the issue.

I'm wondering what others experiences might be.

Folks, as the OP, I am asking that you review the intent of the original question. I think it is very clear.

"Lesbian bed death has been called a myth by some, and been experienced as a reality by others.

But what is it really and what causes us to lose sexual interest?
I am not referring to the peaks and flows that occur in sex in
relationships. I am asking what has a negative impact on our
willingness to be sexual with someone while in a relationship with them."


This thread was meant to be a discussion of personal experiences
with the loss of the sexual aspect of a relationship. It was posted
in the Lesbian Zone because I was interested in other lesbians experiences.

Sticking to the original intent would be greatly appreciated.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Folks, as the OP, I am asking that you review the intent of the original question. I think it is very clear.

"Lesbian bed death has been called a myth by some, and been experienced as a reality by others.

But what is it really and what causes us to lose sexual interest?
I am not referring to the peaks and flows that occur in sex in
relationships. I am asking what has a negative impact on our
willingness to be sexual with someone while in a relationship with them."


This thread was meant to be a discussion of personal experiences
with the loss of the sexual aspect of a relationship. It was posted
in the Lesbian Zone because I was interested in other lesbians experiences.

Sticking to the original intent would be greatly appreciated.

I apologize if what I posted elicited the thread in getting off track in any way. I'll side step out of the thread, now.


P.S. to CityButch, just to clarify. #2 states gay men have more sex than lesbians. I did not say anything about men having longer lasting sexual relationships, I only spoke to what types of couplings were having the most sex.

P.S. To clarify what others may have thought I said: 1)I said nothing about gay male's relationships regarding monogamy.
2)I do not think that I was "telling lesbians what their sexuality is like". I spoke to frequency of sex in male and female couplings, based on my understanding through the course of study. The purpose was to give background to where my thought came from regarding lesbian bed death (or rather, why their may be less sex in female/female couplings than other couplings per research). It no doubt would have behooved me to seek out more academic studies to present, but honestly, did not want to take the time to do that. I would have skipped saying anything if I thought that was necessary to engage.
3)I also did not say that lesbian's relationships go sexless when they are having problems.

I would like to not return to this thread so that it may return to what Kobi wants it to be. I would like to be done with the topic, but will engage with PMs if someone really feels compelled to further discuss.

Thank you.

[waxnrope]

Kobi, thanks for restating the intent of your post. Since we are back on track, I want to say that the topic was something that I recall being discussed a lot in the late 70s/early 80s ... "Berkeley dykes" discussion groups.

Anyway, I did not experience this at the time, but individuals and couples who did, also seemed to have encountered a relationship death, too. A distancing, emotionally, between them. This is what I thought and it is only my opinion and observation.

In terms of my own experience, this situation happened once, later, and after the women's support groups, which discussed such topics, began to die down. In my/our case, this lack of sexual interest was not medically related. It was something else, something within our relationship, which became aware to me when the sex died (I was yet again in school at the time ...). Can I get a "duh"?

When I did become aware, I discussed this with my partner, we talked for days, and it did resolve, albeit, it took some time to reestablish trust and intimacy.

I post this in order to contribute a personal, and uncomfortable tidbit and am not comfortable doing so ... sometimes others misread one's posts, even from the personal perspective, so I'd appreciate if the reader understands why I do not go into great detail or find it necessary to either dismiss or criticize. I am simply offering MY experience and observation.

[Lynn]

This happened to me in my first lesbian relationship, in the first couple of years after I came out. I lost any interest in sex with her or with anyone. I felt disconnected from my own body, too. I remember bringing it up in therapy, and the therapist gave me all these things to try to re-ignite my physical reactions (involving soap, lotion, and showers...). None of it interested me at all. At the same time, I was going through a very contentious and painful coming out process with my family. So, as I've looked at it over the years, I'd say I was depressed. Depression will do that to a person--squash their sex drive.

I had a similar response when I was married to my (bio-male) husband. I could see then that I was depressed, also. I had a bit more insight and self-awareness, as well as some understanding of his feelings, so we did have sex, but it wasn't out of physical desire on my part.

Now, I view sex as a very important aspect of my relationship. If someone lost interest in me, I would want to try to figure it out and resolve it. But, there are factors such as depression, medication, health, stress...and on and on which can impact desire. I wouldn't leave someone because we weren't having sex, but I'd want to understand what was going on and try to fix it, if possible.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Lynn

This happened to me in my first lesbian relationship, in the first couple of years after I came out. I lost any interest in sex with her or with anyone. I felt disconnected from my own body, too. I remember bringing it up in therapy, and the therapist gave me all these things to try to re-ignite my physical reactions (involving soap, lotion, and showers...). None of it interested me at all. At the same time, I was going through a very contentious and painful coming out process with my family. So, as I've looked at it over the years, I'd say I was depressed. Depression will do that to a person--squash their sex drive.

I had a similar response when I was married to my (bio-male) husband. I could see then that I was depressed, also. I had a bit more insight and self-awareness, as well as some understanding of his feelings, so we did have sex, but it wasn't out of physical desire on my part.

Now, I view sex as a very important aspect of my relationship. If someone lost interest in me, I would want to try to figure it out and resolve it. But, there are factors such as depression, medication, health, stress...and on and on which can impact desire. I wouldn't leave someone because we weren't having sex, but I'd want to understand what was going on and try to fix it, if possible.

Thank you Lynn...for sharing your experience and also bringing up something for me that's been running through my head since Corkey posted.

I can completely see how depression can squash the sex drive. The twist for me is that the lack of sex can trigger depression, igniting a vicious emotional circle for me.

A bit of overshare here, perhaps, but...as a kid, I grew up with very strong messages that I was not wanted, was an inconvenience and then some, and that I was only as good as what I provided or produced. My mother delighted in telling stories of how she thought I was retarded (which can happen when you never speak to your very shy but bright child), and how she had contemplated killing us (my sister and I) and then herself on several occasions....except that she didn't really want to kill herself and didn't want to go to prison.

Fast forward through many destructive relationships with narcissists, a total hitting bottom episode in my life, and years of counseling, journaling, crying and processing...and I'm much better. I know my worth. Life is good.

Except...if I love someone, and they close down on me sexually, the spark is gone when they look at me....then I have to struggle mightily not to flip hard into those old feelings.

I totally get what you and Corkey are saying...and what citybutch said about life's pressures intervening...but for me I need to feel valued, desired and treasured for who I am...not for what I do or provide. You can tell me that I'm a wonderful mother, a good cook, a hard worker, etc. and I will thank you. I appreciate that. But I know those things about myself too. What I need from my partner is that glint in their eye that says they want me....just me...and that they want to connect in that special and intense way that sexuality provides.

If the person I love is struggling with depression or medical issues or whatever that drains their desire, then I will hang in and work with them as long as I am able, and as long as they are trying. But, again just for me, to hang in for years with someone who does not desire me and who isn't trying to fix it (speaking only from my own experience now), then I know that's an incredibly destructive emotional place for me to be and....because I now care about myself too...I need to leave.

[citybutch]

And my point DapperButch is that it just isn't true that gay men in long term relationships (which is presumably where Bed Death occurs.. long term relationships) have sex more frequently than lesbians... The studies show that as does my personal experience... In fact, we have friends that are gay and male and they don't have sex at all after many years together (they are the only ones we have actually HAD this discussion with but I suspect it to be true for our other long term relationship friends (and by long term I don't mean 3 years)... My wife and I do have sex in our 12th year of our life together... My point IS... that a withdrawal from sexual activity is universal.. unless there is a concentration on keeping intimacy alive. SO... if we are to have a conversation about Bed Death.. let's discuss it not in terms of a hierarchy of WHO has sex more... and quoting a study that has been debunked. Let's talk about it as the OP intended... What is it and why does it happen?...

Originally Posted by DapperButch

P.S. to CityButch, just to clarify. #2 states gay men have more sex than lesbians. I did not say anything about men having longer lasting sexual relationships, I only spoke to what types of couplings were having the most sex.

[Kobi]

Thanks to those who have, are and will be sharing their experiences.
It is much easier to strut our stuff and bask in our prowess than to
discuss the less pleasant side of things.

For me, there seems to be a distinct connection between my
emotions and my sexuality. If I am not feeling good about me,
the other, or us, it will show first in the bedroom.

Medications and certain illnesses affecting sexual response have
also been my experience.

Communication is essential regardless of the cause if one expects to muddle
thru to the other side. Whether it is dealing with interpersonal stuff, dealing
with self stuff, exploring new ways to evoke response - which is kind of fun-
or gappling with the demise of a relationship, both parties have to be willing
to put forth the effort to work it out.

Feeling desired or desiring is a very powerful motivator. Sometimes we lose our
way until we see that sparkle in another eyes or feel that electricity in anothers
touch again.

[DapperButch]

<deleted post so as not to derail>

I will PM my response to citybutch

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I totally get what you and Corkey are saying...and what citybutch said about life's pressures intervening...but for me I need to feel valued, desired and treasured for who I am...not for what I do or provide. You can tell me that I'm a wonderful mother, a good cook, a hard worker, etc. and I will thank you. I appreciate that. But I know those things about myself too. What I need from my partner is that glint in their eye that says they want me....just me...and that they want to connect in that special and intense way that sexuality provides.

If the person I love is struggling with depression or medical issues or whatever that drains their desire, then I will hang in and work with them as long as I am able, and as long as they are trying. But, again just for me, to hang in for years with someone who does not desire me and who isn't trying to fix it (speaking only from my own experience now), then I know that's an incredibly destructive emotional place for me to be and....because I now care about myself too...I need to leave.

I completely understand what you're saying, and I would tend to agree. After all, depression affects more than just sex drive. One could tend to give up on everything and become very intoverted. This isn't a great place from which to express intimacy and affection, even if there isn't sex. A relationship implies the involvement of more than one person. There has to be a point when one decides they did what they could and it just isn't getting better. I believe everyone has the right to decide when enough is enough.

[Corkey]

I can see if ones partner isn't trying, but that to me has more to do with communicating with one another than anything else. And yes I am married to a lesbian so I think that I can post to this issue. I think more so the title is a misnomer because it is a human condition and something that happens to some couples no matter their gender or sexual preference. Medications and physical and mental conditions do play a huge part in this issue and I think that people need to have the discussion before they get to the point of actually being in a relationship.
Thanks for letting my opinion be of some help.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I can see if ones partner isn't trying, but that to me has more to do with communicating with one another than anything else. And yes I am married to a lesbian so I think that I can post to this issue. I think more so the title is a misnomer because it is a human condition and something that happens to some couples no matter their gender or sexual preference. Medications and physical and mental conditions do play a huge part in this issue and I think that people need to have the discussion before they get to the point of actually being in a relationship.
Thanks for letting my opinion be of some help.

I agree with you Corkey. It's a human condition that can happen to any couple. That's why I said earlier why is there no term for heterosexual bed death or gay men bed death. The whole term and that study that was widely publicized are just perpetuating myths about lesbians plain and simple.

You definitely bring up good points about things that should be discussed before seriously committing to a relationship.

I think also sometimes there are sexual incompatibilities that can become more of an issue as time goes on. Obviously the best thing to do is try and work them out, but sometimes it really isn't possible and you don't realize how much of an issue it is until some time has passed. At least this is something I have experienced.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I agree with you Corkey. It's a human condition that can happen to any couple. That's why I said earlier why is there no term for heterosexual bed death or gay men bed death. The whole term and that study that was widely publicized are just perpetuating myths about lesbians plain and simple.

You definitely bring up good points about things that should be discussed before seriously committing to a relationship.

I think also sometimes there are sexual incompatibilities that can become more of an issue as time goes on. Obviously the best thing to do is try and work them out, but sometimes it really isn't possible and you don't realize how much of an issue it is until some time has passed. At least this is something I have experienced.

I also think sexual incompatibility is a big issue. It may not be recognized as such at the beginning when things are fresh and new, but as the novelty wears off it can become a deal breaker.