"Becoming Chaz"

[Quintease]

I've noticed that a lot of transmen feel a lot more understanding of men after transition, to the point of being sympathetic. Their libido's go up, they physically feel bigger, they start to realise what an aggressive world men live in, and they have to balance this new realisation with their understanding of the world they lived in before they became male.

What transmen lack, that perhaps Chaz forgot in his excitement, is the sense of entitlement that bio-boys are fed from birth. Women aren't supposed to enjoy sex, women are supposed to say no. Sex is the male arena. Even without the social pressures we expect, a female animal of any sort would take care who she slept with in case she became pregnant to the wrong male.

Hopefully when things have calmed down somewhat, Chaz will look back at some of the things he said in the public sphere (in fact he may have already done so), and acknowledge the many way he could have been misunderstood.

I'm really glad that everyone is talking about Chaz, it makes me happy.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by June

It is pretty alarming to read "...and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore"

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Quintease

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

I am guilty of finding myself less interested in chit chat; however, that's not exclusive to chit chat from women.

My "becoming" occurred (socially) at a poker table in a truck stop.....almost always all-men-all-the-time. And lemme tell ya.....some of those guys could do a serious amount of gabbing about nothin' much. There were times I had that "nails on a chalkboard" reaction and had to take a little table break.

So, yeah, I find anything that is said along the lines of "women this" and "women that" to be sexist. There aren't a whole lot of qualities, gifts, annoying traits, etc... that belong solely to --insert gender ID here--.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_16...-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

That really bothered me too. I have to say that when I got on my full dose of T, my basic personality and the way I interact with people didn't change much. I am still me, still careful about how my words and deeds affect people, and I have made it a priority to not become self-absorbed into my transition. Whatever my friends and family are going through, I still try to be engaged in their lives and a source of support for them. I have always been sensitive to the feelings and needs of others, and that hasn't changed.

I was surprised and taken aback at how Chaz treated his girlfriend in the "kitchen" scene. And to say that when his girlfriend is upset she has to make everyone around her upset, well maybe Chaz needs to own his own feelings and not place her as responsible for them. That was my reaction when I watched the documentary.

However, since I have had some time to reflect, I have decided that I don't have enough context and exposure to their relationship to really understand what is going on with them. I am hesitant to pass judgment on someone else's relationship when I have so little exposure to it. The documentary gave us a glimpse, and I recognize that my initial feelings and thoughts about it all are based on a very limited amount of information.

As for some of his sexist comments about women and men in general, and his seeming assumption that being an asshole is just a male trait, those are things that irritate me because I know they aren't necessarily true. They aren't true for me! I keep thinking, and I don't want to be lumped into that stereotype. It is an ugly one and it doesn't have to be that way for men. My father is nothing like that. He is a kind and gentle soul who is very other-centered. I get these traits from him. I was raised by a father who isn't a sexist, self-absorbed pig. A lot of the assumptions that those are male traits ignores that fact that these are social constructs.

[BullDog]

I am a woman and I have zero interest in "gabbing," chit chat or gossip. Actually I'm pretty quiet and not a big talker. (may come as a big surprise to some here ) I know of plenty of men who just go on and on about nothing as well as women. In fact for me, one of the trademarks of men's entitlement is them talking on and on. Not all men do it and not all women engage in "chatter." It's sexist to characterize women's talk that way.

[Corkey]

I have no interest in "chit chat", but then I don't talk much at home either, I'm the one listening for the most part. Short n sweet is my motto, folks have less time these days to just keep muttering non stop. It really hit a nerve he was so short with his gf, I wanted to Butch slap him on being a jackass in the kitchen.

[princessbelle]

Thank you Thinker for posting that link. Was a great read!!!!

A couple of things stand out to me in the documentary. One is when he was at the FtM meeting and he said something to the effect of (not a quote)....i don't have a lot to say because i'm new to this and i am learning. I thought that was commendable and basically was saying just because i'm famous don't mean i have any more to add...i'm just learning my way.

Another thing is, as far as i can tell, he did not edit this documentary. I realize he did give his approval but he was just the focus and not the one that put it all together. I agree some of the comments and references should not have made the final cut.

This is not to excuse any negative thoughts or words that were seen. I saw them too. I felt that tinge of icky when he said a few things that i knew would not be accepted in most of the community. If he were on this site i'm sure he would screw up and get called on it like we all are.

But, i still think he at least is out there and i applaud him for that. Even though he said he could not have hid it all and choose to come out under his own control, he didn't have to make the documentary and take us through his surgery and some very personal things that he did.

It certainly wasn't perfect, IMO, but it was at least a raising of awareness, a direction, a thought, a glass dome into one person's life going through a transition that lots and lots of people around the globe at least got a general definition of what FtM even is.

personal note: My 77 year old southern baptist republican mother watched it. Her words were "I had no idea that people felt they lived in the wrong body. That they felt their physical gender was not who they were on the inside". This opened up a discussion with us. It was an open door to try and explain some things about my community. It was wonderful and would not have happened if she hadn't seen something like this from someone that most everyone knows.

I hope, at the very least, it will get people talking, thinking and discussing.

[Linus]

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Linus

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

Yeah and unfortunately Chaz is reinforcing these ideas in his interviews.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I have seen clips and read numerous interviews.

What I try to keep in mind is that just because Chaz is famous based on celebrity parents, does not mean that he is highly evolved or has done a lot of work with regards to sexism, et al.

It is pretty alarming to read "I don't have as much patience and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore" (that is a paraphrase from an article I read) among other things -- And I didn't know too much about him before, but frankly, that made me think less of him, but also hopeful as he comes into more contact with men and their partners who have made this journey, he will become more sensitive and aware that being a man isn't just assuming, emulating or assimilating stereotypical "masculine" traits and that being a loving, caring, evolved human being should be the ultimate goal, regardless of gender or sex. Added bonus if your outside matches your inside and you feel more comfortable with yourself.

I am glad this is happening publicly though, because it is creating a lot of dialogue that wouldn't have otherwise happened. I try to put myself in the shoes of his mother, if my son came out to me as a woman, as much as I love and support him, it would also be a huge change for me, and I suspect I would have a grieving process of some kind before being able to move forward. I'd like to say I wouldn't miss a beat, but I know in my heart that's not true.

You are being very candid, June and I admire you for this- as much as my mother loved me and supported my being lesbian, she had a few "beats" to deal with and I think that is just plain human. The sexism displayed by Chaz is nothing new, unfortunately. No, it is the acceptance and rolling it into T effects that is nothing new. And I think this hurts Transmen and is an affront to them.

I get really tired of the T-blaming with this and feel that it is quite a negative view of transmen. Adolescent self-absorption does not justify sexist attitudes and behaviors- not for anyone. I certainly had many discussions with my son about this growing up. In fact, he came to me during adolescence and was the child of two alcoholics and a neglectful mother that due to her own abuse background, surrounded herself with abusive misogynists that my son viewed for many years as male role models. There was a lot to undo- it wasn't teen angst and puberty propagating sexism for him!

Also, grieving the loss of gender of a child, parent, sibling, friend, partner is an area of our whole response to transitioning that I think gets swept aside as the trans person's experiences become the main event. This bothers me a lot because we humans are "not islands." I know that even as trans supportive as I am, if my son transitioned, it would be difficult for me in some ways and I would grieve the loss of him as a male. Not very PC of me, I know, but truthful. Frankly, I would be concerned and scared about any possible health risks that could arise for him as well as just the usual fear of having someone you love undergo surgeries under anesthesia. I would deal with these things on my own and seek help for myself (not put my fears on him), but I know I would have these feelings. I also know that I would support him in every way possible.

Throughout the years with the (unfortunately) public trials of Chaz and his celebrity parents, I have felt there was a lot of self-absorption and immaturity. But, there are many Hollywood children that appear to be indulged, and end up doing some very self -destructive things (talking about drugs, alcohol, not transitioning). All ending up in the public eye- which in and of itself seems to add to the mess. For years, Chaz's weight struggles have been blasted all over the tube (he even was on the Biggest Loser), for example. Frankly, it seems like when he was female (to the outside world), these weight comments were common and worse- hummm… what does this say about weight issues and women as opposed to men? Now, his transitioning.

Part of me wonders just how much he really wanted such a public display of his life... yet, again. Or, did he just feel that no matter what he felt and wanted, there was no escape? So, he might as well let the cameras roll. There is just something in his defensive posturing (that was also part of Chastity that I remember) that always gives me pause. Something in his eyes that just felt/feels both angry and sad- even now that he has been able to transition. Maybe this will dissipate as he is able to live his life as who he always has been. I hope so.

I am happy that the trans community has found this documentary to be positive. But, I hope that Chaz finally just gets to have his own life. But, I don't see that happening and I think this is something Hollywood celebrity) kids pay a very high price for.- having a life.

I don’t know if other folks have done any searches online and run across some of the blogs, etc. by the general public about this documentary and Chaz- I have and it is upsetting. Very upsetting- most of them are in response not only to the documentary, but the appearances on shows like Piers Morgan and Joy Behar. The same old gender-ignorance in comments along with a lot of horrible comments about his obesity. Some really ugly things being said. Seeing this hurts and makes me wonder if there is any way to educate the general public about this at all. But, I have no idea how representative these are really. I would really like to see links that are to positive reactions from outside the LGBTIQ community. Please, post some if you have seen them. I can’t take any more of the kind I keep seeing. There is such a long way yet to go.

[theoddz]

Transitioning really is a steady, ongoing process. Sometimes, it's just damned hard.

Most of us who do it drag our life's baggage, for better or worse, into this and it's up to each individual to do the work and evolve into the man/woman we choose to be. There are also people out there who come into this with some pretty damaged souls. Some of us don't have very good mentors, if we have any at all, and others of us, like myself, have outstanding ones (my Pop, who, after 81 years of life, has found himself mentoring a son). Coming to terms with my own baggage and my own "damage" from living 45 years in a shell that was never mine has given me a lot to work through....and I'm hardly done yet. I have worked through a lot of anger, towards society and my family and I still am working through it, but I have never used Testosterone as an excuse for any bad behavior I've been guilty of. Sometimes, I guess, I'm just an asshole and perhaps just guilty of not using much self control, but that has to do with my being a human being with faults and flaws, and I totally own that. Testosterone has never been the cause of it.

Transition lasts a lifetime for so many of us. You can beat us up for attitudes that result from our confusion, or because we just haven't worked through them, or even because we're just basically misguided or you can keep talking to us and help us through our processing and "healing" to be better, more enlightened men and women. Some transfolks are lucky to have a loving and supportive community, either in real time or here online. There are also tons of people who are transitioning with no community whatsoever and are having to navigate through transition the best they know how by themselves. I have to say that I'm a pretty lucky guy to have you all here. From what was shown on the documentary, Chaz appears to have a pretty good support system in place for him. I think this will fare him very well.

I think what is really going to be interesting, and probably pretty joyful, is seeing what Chaz does and perhaps another interview or film in the upcoming years. I have a feeling that things are going to come around just fine for him and that he's going to grow/evolve to be a pretty good fellow and role model (spokesman). I certainly wish that for him and look forward to seeing him become even happier with his life in the years to come.

~Theo~

[Leigh]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.

When I first started My T, and I'm not even on a full dose yet, I noticed that My sex drive went through the roof ~ its also not something I was used to so it threw Me off and at first I kinda pushed the increased sexual thoughts aside because I still was not used to wanting it that much (or even at all). I think now that I've gotten more used to the increase I'm celebrating more the fact that I even have a sex drive. I agree that just because you have a heightened sex drive does *NOT* mean you can sexually abuse/assault/rape anyone .......... even just to use that as an excuse is appaling and there is no reason for it. I know thats not what Chaz was saying, and I get where he was coming from but you do have to choose your words carefully no matter what gender you are

Originally Posted by Linus

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I kinda shook My head here too, cuz I thought why would you try and justify that stuff on the hormones when thats not it at all

[Rockinonahigh]

On the morning news It said Chaz will be on Dr.Drew either tonight or tomorrow..Should be intresting to see what Dr.Drew comes up with.
One thing I noticesd on the Piers Morgan show was that there is some unease going on between Chaz and Jen,corse haveing been on so many
shows may be getting to be a bit much.After watching them as well as seeing the body language I wonder if they will be together in a year...I get she is a bit snippy about how she deals with all of this and chaz reminds me of a hormone driven teenager(from The T shots) I gess its normal or maybe a change on dosage will still do the job and chill him a bit.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I enjoyed the documentary. I actually thought as a partner that many of the issues we deal with were shown and explored through Jen. I found their relationship very hard to watch. Their was a lot of tension and grief that I could feel. When she said she has to get know him over and over as things change and progress I could really relate to that. You do never know what is in store! A physical change, a different way of relating. Some could be just normal changes couples go through but there is usually a question or thought 'is this transition related'.

What I really would have liked to have seen is more about how they arrived at the idea that they are now a straight couple. I don't think all couples get to that place. I am not there yet. My concern is that the general public will look at Chaz and think that this is how it is for every transman.

I do though very much appreciate his coming forward and sharing his story. Oprah is big time mainstream. I am hoping this will contribute towards transpeople being recognized and accepted for who they are.

I liked the point Jenn made that everyone is in transition when a friend, loved one, etc goes through a transition. I thought about my own "transition" on many levels as Rufus decided to and then went through his own transition. I am interested in knowing what types of transitions partners of trans men and women go through.

Melissa

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I'm trying to keep an open mind about Jen, but she is bugging me a bit.

(i.e. squealing while he is in hospital gown, "I've never seen you in a dress...you're in a mumu!" He had to tell her to be quiet.

I do think that many of Jenn's responses were inappropriate and there were a lot of cringe moments for me. On the other hand, she states she was drinking at this time so I think a lot of these comments and behaviors might be related to her drinking. I think we don't really have a good sense of who Jenn is because a lot of what she said and did was while under the influence. My first reaction was that I didn't like her. But by the end of the doc and the interview with Rosie I really did come to like her (like is such a vague word, but I don't know how to describe it). She said some things that resonated with me and made me think. She didn't come across as phony but as very real. But again this could be a product of good filmmakers and editors plus the drinking. But all in all I got a lot out of this documentary and I'm glad Jenn was included. This was a doc about Chaz's transition, but also his relationship, Jenn's responses, his mother's response and so on.

Melissa

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I do think that many of Jenn's responses were inappropriate and there were a lot of cringe moments for me. On the other hand, she states she was drinking at this time so I think a lot of these comments and behaviors might be related to her drinking. I think we don't really have a good sense of who Jenn is because a lot of what she said and did was while under the influence. My first reaction was that I didn't like her. But by the end of the doc and the interview with Rosie I really did come to like her (like is such a vague word, but I don't know how to describe it). She said some things that resonated with me and made me think. She didn't come across as phony but as very real. But again this could be a product of good filmmakers and editors plus the drinking. But all in all I got a lot out of this documentary and I'm glad Jenn was included. This was a doc about Chaz's transition, but also his relationship, Jenn's responses, his mother's response and so on.

Melissa

Good points, Melissa--ones that I hadn't thought about (re: the drinking) and, toward the end, she didn't irritate me as much. That post was first impressions about a half hour or forty five minutes into the doc.

I am VERY glad she was included. Very.

I have this feeling her and Chaz are in for rough times. I wish them the best.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Linus

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I totally agree. I really hate that he *went there* about chalking up temper tantrums to the T.

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

That really bothered me too. I have to say that when I got on my full dose of T, my basic personality and the way I interact with people didn't change much. [COLOR="Black"]I am still me, still careful about how my words and deeds affect people, and I have made it a priority to not become self-absorbed into my transition.[/COLOR] Whatever my friends and family are going through, I still try to be engaged in their lives and a source of support for them. I have always been sensitive to the feelings and needs of others, and that hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by Linus

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I believe our sense of character stays the same but testorone is a drug and hormone and it does have side effects. But how these manifest in each individual is different and irregardless of how they manifest it doesn't excuse a persons behavior.

I know if I take my shot and I haven't eaten or if I take it too late in the day I will have a similiar effect to drinking several pots of expresso. The couple times i had this reaction I laid low until it passed, took note and I don't take my shot on an empty stomach nor at night. I knew i was on the edge and knew to stay clear of people.

Otherwise it has had the opposite effect on me. I am way calmer and mellower then I ever was. I am far less emotional. This doesn't mean I still don't have them they just aren't as easily seen. I use to bawl when watching extreme makeover home edtion, I now may have a tear or two well up. I am still touched but how it manifests in me is different.

I use to have extreme hormonal mood swing and actually what I called the pms flue and all that is gone. When things happen that would have put me in a tizzy i'm not really anymore. Do I believe some it is due to personal growth? yes but some of it is due to the change in my hormones.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

As for some of his sexist comments about women and men in general, and his seeming assumption that being an asshole is just a male trait, those are things that irritate me because I know they aren't necessarily true. They aren't true for me! I keep thinking, and I don't want to be lumped into that stereotype. It is an ugly one and it doesn't have to be that way for men. My father is nothing like that. He is a kind and gentle soul who is very other-centered. I get these traits from him. I was raised by a father who isn't a sexist, self-absorbed pig. A lot of the assumptions that those are male traits ignores that fact that these are social constructs.

I didn't like the general stereotypes also. What is really hard is this is an account of Chaz's transition and not a documentary on transition in general. So I do see where this is his experience. What is hard is the fact that it does reinforce common misconceptions. Also that most people won't say "oh this is just his experience" They will lump it into a one size fits all.

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Another thing is, as far as i can tell, he did not edit this documentary. I realize he did give his approval but he was just the focus and not the one that put it all together. I agree some of the comments and references should not have made the final cut.

I hope, at the very least, it will get people talking, thinking and discussing.

I guess I don't know what the complete role of a producer is but I would think that the producer would get a say in what goes in and what doesn't go in. On his facebook "Becoming Chaz" page he is listed as the producer. You are correct in that he isn't listed as an editor but wouldn't a producer still have a fair amount of say?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Quintease

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

My BUTCH partner has never been interested in chit-chat--So you're saying there was a time, pre-transition when your BF liked the sewing circle? *just curious.

[apretty]

Why doesn't Chaz work--Am I the only a-hole who doesn't get his finances and thinks that "finances" are a super-relevent part of the picture?

He had money to be an addict for 10 years and, according to the documentary he laid on the couch for a year(s) playing video games...

What does he do besides the trans-stuff?

*Again, curious.