School costs and parent involvement

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

I still don't understand why the US can't have equal funding. Does anyone know why the unequal system of funding schools is still in effect?

M

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by Martina

This stuff was going on long before NCLB. It wasn't that way when i was in school, but i remember friends who had their kids in Ann Arbor schools who were supposed to pony up for things all the time. i recall a minor example -- students were supposed to buy green t-shirts for a field trip so that the kids could be kept track of. My co-worker was poor and had no time to go out shopping on the spur of the moment etc.

i don't teach elementary, but we sure don't assume that there is support at home for projects. i am not sure how this got started. A friend of mine whose kids are in Ann Arbor schools is constantly working on projects. She has the money and the time, but is it even good for her sons?

Another friend, her son calls from COLLEGE for help, sometimes on deadline. The kid is a junior. It's mind-boggling to me.

Another friend is a dean of a small college, and she says for some years colleges -- and professors -- have had many more parents calling to intervene when their kids are failing a class etc. Amazing.

So i think parents are a part of the problem. i think they are afraid to allow their kids to fail or flounder. And it keeps upping the ante.

i also think this doesn't have anything to do with high stakes testing. If we were concentrating only on high stakes testing, there wouldn't be any projects at all. Project-based learning is great. It needs good curriculum, cooperation among staff and administration, and hard work on everyone's part. It should not require much parental involvement.

Parental pareticipation should be be about helping kids review and, if necessary, stay organized. The point of homework is building toward mastery. Sitting down with their kids, checking homework, helping kids with their planners, checking planners, staying up on what's happening in the classroom, and perhaps volunteering -- that's what parents should be doing. But they should not be going back to school themselves.

***begin rant***

i may sound a bit irritable here. But all the armchair folks who talk about what's wrong with the system, 90 percent of them don't have a clue. They read about it or listen to pundits on the radio, but they are not professionals. i understand that all of us are stakeholders. The students are our kids and future leaders. We all should care.

It's fine to read and research and have opinions. But i hear all the time, well i subbed fifteen years ago, and . . . Or my daughter teaches in San Jose, and she says. . . . i just want to say, get back to me when you are a fully credentialed experienced teacher, counselor or admin, when you have had real responsibility for children's educations.

It's not just the notion that teachers are the problem and that somehow "fixing" us would solve all the world's problems that i abhore. i think most of us here would object to that and object to the teacher-hating legislation that has been going on.

But the idea that every retired old fart at the donut shop feels qualified to tell you what is wrong -- at length -- with public schools is part of the problem -- the problem that is not respecting teachers and the mission of public school education.

Man, it makes me tired.

****end rant*****

Totally agree. Teachers are just struggling to hold on to their jobs any more and many are out of work and have advanced degrees, training and experience. Teachers aren't allowed to teach and use their experience and training. They are told what to teach, how to teach and what will happen if the test scores don't meet requirements. This isn't just happening in public schools it is happening in colleges too. College instructors are losing control of their classrooms, the curriculum, even their syllabi. I'll get started on the loss of tenure and reliance on a college workforce of underemployed and underpaid adjunct faculty who work from class contract to class contract with no health benefits soon But the two are linked. As you said, it is the politicizing of education and it extends from kindergarten through college.

Melissa

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Melissa

I still don't understand why the US can't have equal funding. Does anyone know why the unequal system of funding schools is still in effect?

M

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

This is very true in CA- educational funding based upon property taxes. And with NCLB and its continuation under Obama, federal education funds are based upon the whole testing system.

[little_ms_sunshyne]

I am a Science Teacher as well as the head of my Science Dept. I can see everyone's frustrations with the budget distribution. It is true that the state gives us guidelines as to what our children should be learning. Budgets are affecting how we teach. However, I am fortunate enough to work for a district and principal that believes that we should nurture certain areas in our students academic development. During the summer time, our district applies for as many grants as possible. This last year we were able to purchase 300 laptops for students to check out which include internet cards, symphony concert series tickets, projectors and smartboards for every classroom, IPODS, netbooks, etc. It is quite a bit of technology all made possible by these grants. Also, we received grants for workshops, trainings, and staff developments for our staff.

Recently I had a conversation with our principal about the arts. She has signed our school up for a mural project where kids can nurture their artistic expression. We are hoping that this will not only add a sense of pride in their community but will be an outlet for self expression which they truly struggle with.

In my lessons, I include "Food for the Brain". This is my time to share different things with my student. Some are areas that interest them, others are things that I find interesting to share. Either way, it encourages students to take ownership of their education and that is when the real learning begins I do the best with what I have and differentiated instruction is one of the keys. I could go on and on..lol

In regards to supplies, I always end up stocking up in the summer. I work in an at-risk area and budgets are tight for most families. I try not to add the pressure and supply my kids with what I can. Of course, I am only one person and can do so much but we find a way to make it work. I can honestly say that we try so hard to provide our kids with enriching experiences that they wouldn't have otherwise.

This year I am taking my 5th graders to NASA
Sorry, I get excited when it comes to teaching! I may have strayed from the topic at hand lol

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Can you tell us more about the project and what is considered a third grade project vs a 7th grade project? This just might be your client's perspective on the project. In terms of the district, the project probably complies with grade level expectations and learning objectives.

I have heard of teachers buying supplies out of their own pocket because budget cuts are preventing schools from buying materials. Perhaps this child's teacher is not willing to dip into his or her own pocket, or has spent too much and can't afford any more. My guess is that teacher's are very in tune to which kids can or cannot afford supplies and which kids have parents who are active in their learning and which kids have parents who can't or won't be involved in their learning. It could be that the project is mandated and the teacher has little control over it?

M

Gosh, Melissa, that was so long ago I can't really even remember anymore!

In terms of teachers purchasing materials for projects, my point was that when they bought materials back in my day the projects were with pipe cleaners and popsicle sticks! My point was, this is not possible anymore (not that they should have ever felt they had to do it). Also, they were projects that were things that were easy to have on hand in the class room that a teacher could hand out to the one or two students on the side that didn't have parents who would purchase the materials for them, for whatever reason.

[jelli]

Originally Posted by greeneyedgrrl

I am all for going on field trips...but so NOT down for spending mah hard earned $$ on crap trips to consumerville like disneyland. i want my kid to go to places i haven't, but i want the trips to have some substance too.

I know exactly what you mean about having substance vs. touristy travels. Our district has been trying to find some balance, but I am not sure if the balance is where the trips start getting costly.

We want to go to Disneyland, but we need our educational stuff too. So let's see what is all on the way down and back that we can integrate as part of XYZ curriculum.

[jelli]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I think it is great for all kids to get out of the box, too- but I think school field trips should be to enhance what kids are learning in school. When we went to government related places, our teachers taught us about how bills are put through the state legislature before we went and then we talked about the processes we observed.

Wouldn't that be great if that is how it worked out, but the sad thing is so many kids are taught to take the fast, easy, etc way.

Look at the number of kids nowadays that do not know how to use a dictionary, a phone book, balance a bank statement(keep track of ATM purchases), write a formal letter/resume/etc.

And why if kids aren't learning these things don't the parents teach them.

[jelli]

Originally Posted by Melissa

My guess is that teacher's are very in tune to which kids can or cannot afford supplies and which kids have parents who are active in their learning and which kids have parents who can't or won't be involved in their learning. It could be that the project is mandated and the teacher has little control over it?

M

I have been volunteering in the public schools, in two different states, on 5 different grade levels at a time, for 20 years now. I have had the extreme pleasure of meeting some of the best teachers.

I totally believe many of our teachers have a good grasp on their class and what the individual students are capable of and some obstacles too.

I've witness students take a failing grade because they didn't want to ask a parent(for various reasons) to take them to the library to use a computer. Students who really struggle with a math concept and there was nobody around to help them at home or the math was even beyond a level the parents could comprehend.

Nowadays, our teachers are not just teachers. Teaching is a big enough task as it is, but they have taken on the roles as counselors or at least getting these kids "other needs" to the appropriate person that possibly can help them.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not sure if this is true in all states, but when I was in NY the schools received the majority of their funding from local property taxes. So, affluent area, high taxes, well funded schools and the opposite also the case.

Not saying it has to be that way...just that it would take a major restructuring of how schools are funded...and an awful lot of political will to do so.

Jo - in every town I have lived in the property tax system is used so I'm guessing this system is used throughout most of the United States. I'm just wondering why funds couldn't be collected and placed in one big state pot, for example, and then distributed to schools based on enrollment. For example, a set amount per student. This way schools get equal funds. Funding is not based on the community property levels but on number of students enrolled. I've never seen it as a difficult change to make. I see it more as a choice to continue the funding this way because it benefits certain groups of people.

M

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Jo - in every town I have lived in the property tax system is used so I'm guessing this system is used throughout most of the United States. I'm just wondering why funds couldn't be collected and placed in one big state pot, for example, and then distributed to schools based on enrollment. For example, a set amount per student. This way schools get equal funds. Funding is not based on the community property levels but on number of students enrolled. I've never seen it as a difficult change to make. I see it more as a choice to continue the funding this way because it benefits certain groups of people.

M

I agree, in part...but there's also this to consider.

Affluent parents can afford to provide more for their students than low-income parents can. So, even if the pot is divided equally as x$ per student, there will still be inequality of resources. If anything, low income areas should receive more per student and affluent areas less.

Honestly, I can't see it happening (as much as I'd like it to). Having lived in upstate NY I was already witness to the massive screaming and complaining about upstate dollars going to support "those people in the city" and the accompanying (unfounded) derogatory remarks.

We now live in a much poorer area, and a significantly underfunded school district compared to where we were. Ironically, my son is getting a much better education, enjoys school more, and is getting better grades as well.

Where we lived in NY, the libraries were funded as you suggest...with each library getting an equal share of the pot. However, the library in our small, affluent town was amazing....while the one I donated all of my books to in the city struggled. The library in the affluent part of town was able to do a great deal of private fund-raising in the community, and could pretty much get whatever they wanted while the other branch struggled to do a bake sale and book sale that raised a small amount.

So...don't know the answer, but...how do we balance that? Do we take into account how much more parents can provide? How much private local fundraising or grant writing they could do? What if they could, but choose not to? It's complicated.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by jelli

We want to go to Disneyland, but we need our educational stuff too. So let's see what is all on the way down and back that we can integrate as part of XYZ curriculum.

i get that some people want to go to DL, but i don't feel it's appropriate for education, especially when things that are important AND essential to children's growth and development are being cut, like outside time, creative teaching, music and the arts. i feel that the fluffy trips (those that lack substance) should be family trips, not school. the child who comes from a low income family isn't going to miss much by not going to disneyland. hiwever, denied the opportunity to leave their neighborhood and see something of substance (our government in action )or inaction as the case may be) or seeing one of our national forests, could be life changing. i also don't think that DL should in any way be funded by taxpayer money. ...and i've been there, really isn't all that. your $70 (just to get in?? really?? why??) or whatever it is could be spent better elsewhere. jeez you could take a family of four to the local aquarium for that. i want my kid to be out in nature, or learning how our government works, not learning how to buy more ish...she gets enough of that without adding it into the curriculum. it pisses me off that the 8th grade DC trip got cut in favor of GA or 6 flags...sad day for education--end rant

[cane]

Where I live all supplies are paid for by the school, and I have a special budget for that. Also we tend to make all our projects on school time, to compensate for absent parents and so on. I think that is a good solution to the problem.

One thing I wanted to point out though, is that I, as a teacher, of course I can see when a kid has made a project without any help.

[cane]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Canadian (and some other countries) education systems are vastly different--equal funding for all students regardless of location or neighbourhood or whatever.

No teacher here (my Canadian city) would dream of creating an assignment that is not accessible to all students--regardless of socio-economic status.

We would be called to the table if we assigned such a thing.


However, like I said, we have equal funding for all students--regardless of where families reside--they have quality education.


ETA: So, no, there would be no assignments that some kids could *afford* and others could not.

I guess the Swedish system is much like the Canadian then, equal funding for everybody.

[jelli]

Originally Posted by greeneyedgrrl

i get that some people want to go to DL, but i don't feel it's appropriate for education, especially when things that are important AND essential to children's growth and development are being cut, like outside time, creative teaching, music and the arts. i feel that the fluffy trips (those that lack substance) should be family trips, not school. the child who comes from a low income family isn't going to miss much by not going to disneyland. hiwever, denied the opportunity to leave their neighborhood and see something of substance (our government in action )or inaction as the case may be) or seeing one of our national forests, could be life changing. i also don't think that DL should in any way be funded by taxpayer money. ...and i've been there, really isn't all that. your $70 (just to get in?? really?? why??) or whatever it is could be spent better elsewhere. jeez you could take a family of four to the local aquarium for that. i want my kid to be out in nature, or learning how our government works, not learning how to buy more ish...she gets enough of that without adding it into the curriculum. it pisses me off that the 8th grade DC trip got cut in favor of GA or 6 flags...sad day for education--end rant

I am all for the students creating ways to raise the money or at least a portion of the money. This will not only ease the burden on parents, but also (hopefully) teach them about working and saving towards something they truly would like to do.

We have 5(4 that lived full time) kids and in no time would $70 have taken us to a local aquarium, zoo, fair, or out to a decent dinner for that fact, but I get what you're saying.

Did anyone see where I talked about kids not being able to use a dictionary, phone book, balance monies, etc? Yes, a said day.

[luv2luvgirls]

I must comment I have been ranting about this since my kid started school...Why do I need to buy the tennis balls for the chair and table legs? dont they have funding for that type of supply ...further more the older my kid gets the more it seems that they corner you into buying the "ice cream parties for good behavior or meeting some goal,my problem with it is this...first off w/o a heads up I get my kid coming home telling me what I need to purchase for w/e thing they are doing...and its needed the next day...so then I get an email from the teacher telling me if I could help as most of the parents cant...then to find out the next day that its not just her class but the whole pod I need to bring ice cream for....if your gonna reward kids for meeting a goal ...why am I the one doing it? and if I tell my kid I am not doing it this time I do it everytime let another parent do it...she comes home after not getting the said party and now its my fault as the teacher states sorry but no one brought stuff...grrrr

next subject,projects..I dont know about you guys but the parents here get graded for involvement I have to sign this and initial that after checking her work to show i do..and from what I have been hearing, from other parents and teachers is if you are not involved to thier expectations you get a visit from dcf or w/e it may be called im not sure...but the projects,at the beginning of 3rd grade last yr she had to do a power point presentation...I was like huh!!!I wonder how they heck is my kid going to do that?amazingly she does with guidance

I think im the only butch parent there anyway lol and I want to know what is going on in the school so I go to all the meetings.. the fund raisers are much more different then when I went to school,it says dont go door to door,parents take it to work and get donations or sell the suff. doesnt that defeat the purpose of teaching kids about fund raising? school is so changed.
in a way it is looking like its going for the better only in the fact that they are holding parents responsible more now and that I think needs to be done. but what if thier perception of "parent involvement" isnt what I thought...am I going to get a visit because you think I should have paid for all the parties? its kinda worrisome

[jelli]

Originally Posted by luv2luvgirls

I must comment I have been ranting about this since my kid started school...Why do I need to buy the tennis balls for the chair and table legs? dont they have funding for that type of supply ...further more the older my kid gets the more it seems that they corner you into buying the "ice cream parties for good behavior or meeting some goal,my problem with it is this...first off w/o a heads up I get my kid coming home telling me what I need to purchase for w/e thing they are doing...and its needed the next day...so then I get an email from the teacher telling me if I could help as most of the parents cant...then to find out the next day that its not just her class but the whole pod I need to bring ice cream for....if your gonna reward kids for meeting a goal ...why am I the one doing it? and if I tell my kid I am not doing it this time I do it everytime let another parent do it...she comes home after not getting the said party and now its my fault as the teacher states sorry but no one brought stuff...grrrr

next subject,projects..I dont know about you guys but the parents here get graded for involvement I have to sign this and initial that after checking her work to show i do..and from what I have been hearing, from other parents and teachers is if you are not involved to thier expectations you get a visit from dcf or w/e it may be called im not sure...but the projects,at the beginning of 3rd grade last yr she had to do a power point presentation...I was like huh!!!I wonder how they heck is my kid going to do that?amazingly she does with guidance

I think im the only butch parent there anyway lol and I want to know what is going on in the school so I go to all the meetings.. the fund raisers are much more different then when I went to school,it says dont go door to door,parents take it to work and get donations or sell the suff. doesnt that defeat the purpose of teaching kids about fund raising? school is so changed.
in a way it is looking like its going for the better only in the fact that they are holding parents responsible more now and that I think needs to be done. but what if thier perception of "parent involvement" isnt what I thought...am I going to get a visit because you think I should have paid for all the parties? its kinda worrisome

Parents purchase the tennis balls? Please tell me you are joking???

Butch parenting can be one of the hardest things in my opinion. Especially if you live in the Bible Belt like we do. Between the responses from faculty and the response of peers towards your child(or in our case children) it can be maddening. "Here be involved, but can you do it invisibly?'

fund-raising has to be done sometimes, but the door to door stuff I refuse to let my kids sell. I'm sure it's the profit return on that over priced wrapping paper, trinkets, etc that is the appeal for the school. What happened to bake sales, car washes, cake walks, you know, the good times, old school, community involved, fund raising. And if a child has a parent that can not afford to be involved then perhaps let their involvement be in trade... like making signs for the event or volunteering time. Don't punish the kids for their parents level of involvement to me that just promotes guilt/shame or a damned if I do mentality(depending on the age level of the child).

[luv2luvgirls]

Originally Posted by jelli

Parents purchase the tennis balls? Please tell me you are joking???

Butch parenting can be one of the hardest things in my opinion. Especially if you live in the Bible Belt like we do. Between the responses from faculty and the response of peers towards your child(or in our case children) it can be maddening. "Here be involved, but can you do it invisibly?'

fund-raising has to be done sometimes, but the door to door stuff I refuse to let my kids sell. I'm sure it's the profit return on that over priced wrapping paper, trinkets, etc that is the appeal for the school. What happened to bake sales, car washes, cake walks, you know, the good times, old school, community involved, fund raising. And if a child has a parent that can not afford to be involved then perhaps let their involvement be in trade... like making signs for the event or volunteering time. Don't punish the kids for their parents level of involvement to me that just promotes guilt/shame or a damned if I do mentality(depending on the age level of the child).

im not joking in the least that is just an example for kindergarten,but you always have to supply the disinfecting wipes the paper towles the sanitizer,tissues,bandaides...all of IT!!!!! and the personal ones you need for your kids,like a lil bottle of sanitizer,travel pack tissues..the list goes on and on I swear.
It is hard to be a single butch parent,but it was the best decision I ever made wanting to be a parent, Im in freakin KY of all places :O :S for real...the hills have eyes and shit :O coming from Fla to this was a change for sure but I did it for my kid so I could slow down and let her be a kid you know? they are so lil divas in Fla such attitudes by the time they are 5 its unreal.Such violence as well...kids in preschool biting the others nose clean off!! lil boys cornering the one lil girl and her begging to be let go,trying to kiss her and when you bring it up to the facultiy...they think its cute!!! thats cute to overpower a lil girl?!! thats why there is so much violence against women now...cos its cute *rolls eyes*

oh my kid gets embarressed by me for sure...after she hit 2nd grade,now she thinks my faux hawk is too much...and she started saying stuff like why do you like to look like a boy? so I had to have a talk w/ her...must have been something said as I have always looked like this,well maybe not the blue mowhawk but always dressed acted and looked like me *shrugs shoulders* she just wants a family she said she would rather have a mom around since im not girlie so she wants me to bring one home lmao...kids smh...I have never dated or brought anyone around her ever...she does crack me up tho

[luv2luvgirls]

forgot to mention...the teachers and facuilty love me....but I dont bring a partner so I think that has a lot to do with it...all of em email me or invite me to functions all the time.the kids like me too...they giggle and stare and wave and make stuff up just to talk to me

[jelli]

I always buy the "normal" stuff, but I promise you I would go to the board before I bought tennis balls for anything other than gym class.

The only thing that might be harder to me than Butch parenting is Step-Butch parenting.