Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Heart]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't know that you're too far off the topic, Heart. I think that feminism is non-optional for any queer movement worthy of supporting. Any queer movement, meme or ideology that turns its back on feminist principles should be suspect. By feminist principle, I mean something very simple--to me, feminism at base has one stance "women are people, for better or worse, they are first and foremost human beings" and one basic question "does this help women". If the meme does not treat women as people, then it is not feminist. If it does not have as one of its goals uplifting and empowering women or, at the very worst not doing any harm, then it does not deserve to be called feminist. The erasure of women is one of the reasons I had to pull back from BV. I wonder if some of why lesbian has become so problematic is that lesbian is definitively pro-woman. To me, lesbian and feminist go together in much the same way that life and water go together.

Cheers
Aj

Right on AJ. But I will go further than doing no harm and further than empowerment. Articulating feminist principles today should have at least these specific grounding and intersecting principles: linking oppressions, dismantling patriarchy, and women in leadership positions.

[Apocalipstic]

This is such a great discussion.

I was younger I was way more actively pro-woman than I am not....to the point of being anti-man.

There has to be a balance. Things seem so extreme.

If Lesbian is not the term for women loving women, then is there a term? Does it make us less for wanting a term to describe ourselves?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Right on AJ. But I will go further than doing no harm and further than empowerment. Articulating feminist principles today should have at least these specific grounding and intersecting principles: linking oppressions, dismantling patriarchy, and women in leadership positions.

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

Well, here I am, Kobi. Sounds like we're on the same path.

It's been real tough trying to find butch kindred spirits to this end. There's been a headlong rush towards masculinizing "butch", draining it of femaleness, and affirming male IDed people. I got swept up in this, myself, with some help from partners. Hell, I had three consecutive partners insist I was a "Stone". (Been in EMDR therapy and guess what, I'm not.)

Whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, femaleness/womanhood has been situated on a lower rung on the neo-butch hierarchy. Except, when femaleness/womanhood applies to MtoFs.

I SEE THIS EVERYWHERE IN THE COMMUNITY ! ! ! !

I do see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, related) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender). I have to find the words to express this. (Chazz, keep it simple, stupid ).

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Well, here I am, Kobi. Sounds like we're on the same path.

It's been real tough trying to find butch kindred spirits to this end. There's been a headlong rush towards masculinizing "butch", draining it of femaleness, and affirming male IDed people. I got swept up in this, myself, with some help from partners. Hell, I had three consecutive partners insist I was a "Stone". (Been in EMDR therapy and guess what, I'm not.)

Whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, femaleness/womanhood has been situated on a lower rung on the neo-butch hierarchy. Except, when femaleness/womanhood applies to MtoFs.

I SEE THIS EVERYWHERE IN THE COMMUNITY ! ! ! !

I do see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, interrelated) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender). I have to find the words to express this. (Chazz, keep it simple, stupid ).

I guess I see them very much hand in hand , at least for myself. I too allowed myself to be swept up in the Hy/He pronoun juggling. It was at once a joyous celebration of finding safe space for my "butchness" , finding clarity with my body dysphoria, and creating a space for myself that felt authentic on my butch level , even if not so much on my female/woman level.

I am stone. Of this I have no doubt. I still have issues with my female form ( and probably always will to some degree). I am a woman and without that and some sense of pride in that, I cannot experience and LIVE my lesbian pride. Without that, I can also not live my butch pride. So, while these re-claimings may be different, they do operate simultaneously for me.

I also see feminist theory as the only way we ( the whole enchilada) can make strides against and hopefully see an end to the marginalization of ANY group of persons with common traits. I am sometimes short sighted and very much appreciate reminders. Thank you Heart for the tireless efforts in keeping us aware.

[BullDog]

I am a proud lesbian and proud butch woman. I always have been. Other people's personal definitions of themselves do not threaten me. There are all different types of lesbians, women and butches. I celebrate that.

As far as reconciling butch, woman, female and lesbian, for a short time I felt some distance from woman. I thought that I was always politically aligned with woman but that perhaps it wasn't so much my gender. That my gender was simply butch. However, quite frankly that was just me over thinking gender and straying from woman- however temporarily and partial that may have been- robbed me of some of my strength and connection with other women. I came back to fully embracing woman and for me it is quite empowering. It is my connection to all women- past, present and future. It is my birthright and central to my day to day lived reality. It is also my fervent hope as a non-conforming and butch woman to help expand the possibilities of what woman is and can be, just as I have been enriched and inspired by all the brave women who have come before me. Certainly being a lesbian is completely tied into all this as well. It is at the core of me being butch.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk. I didnt think I was getting an answer. But, I was. I got so caught up in the forest, I couldnt see the trees.

For others, like me, who are connect-the-dots challenged, it occurred to me this morning, that it was people who narrowly define like me who excluded many women and lesbians back in the day.

One group we excluded was the butch-femme community. Thankfully they went ahead and made their own community. Here, those people we excluded found a home, a place to be all that they were.

And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

I am not sure about Jess, but that is what I was trying to say!

Originally Posted by Kobi

Whoa, sometimes truths just blow me away in a good way. This is something, I too, am finding to be necessary at this stage of my life.
Maybe its part of why I have this need to reclaim my lesbianism in a very vocal, public way.

I have been in a stage where I preferred the word Dyke. I am seeing the importance of those of us who are Lesbians embracing the word and not making it about who has or has not accepted us...who has or has not suffered more.

Being a woman is hard and as we have been discussing standing up for ourselves seems to be less and less OK. I have been thinking about this lately in general so this really ties in for me.

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

Yes and yes!

Yesterday I was trying to say that Femmes are marginalized too, but I hope in doing so I did not come off sounding like ONLY Femmes are marginalized.

I am thrilled beyond belief to see actual Butches who id as Women speak up.

Yeay!

and

I do see how it is important from a Feminist standpoint to call myself Lesbian if I am in fact Lesbian, rather than thinking up cute other names I prefer.

ps. This does not however mean I will be listening to Lesbian music . I will find other ways to be supportive.

[Chazz]

Here's why I feel obliged to say: I see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, related) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender)'.

It's important to me to acknowledge that not all lesbians are butches or femmes. That, to me, is Sisterhood.

Furthermore, there is an operative in play. That is the, often tacit, assumption that masculine butches are automatically assumed to be male-identified unless they say otherwise. (That may not be the operative in this thread, but it is in many places. It's why I feel obliged to be as succinct as possible.)

And, the nouveau construct that a female-bodied person partnered with another female-bodied person, may not be a lesbian.

It is a drag to have to issue disclaimers when talking about my identity and my desire for reconciliation, but it's an unfortunate reality when words have been redefined and appropriated by those who do not identity as women or lesbians.

[I'mOneToo]

My personal reconciliation of self has been perceived by some outside of myself as an abandonment of myself, or an abandonment of who they are in relation to me. My changing, dropping or adding a descriptor for myself doesn't change anyone else. Others change too, and I'm as accepting of that in others as myself.

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Respectfully, I'd like to offer a fourth "grounding". It could be optional for those to whom it may apply.

It is as follows: That masculine butches (me), be allowed (perchance, encouraged) to reconcile with our woman/female selves after years (in some cases, a lifetime) of self-estrangement. And that, that self-reconciliation be celebrated, discussed and parsed, and NOT SEEN AS DISAVOWING, NEGATING, OR OPPRESSING ANYONE ELSE.

This is something I have been struggling with on my own; it would be nice to find some lesbian/butch kindred spirits.

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz -- yes. This is so clear and important. I appreciate and support your butch voice on this and realize that I may be wandering from a central and crucial point in the discussion.

Exposing the marginalization of butch women is very much a feminist issue and part of resisting sexism and misogyny.

Apologies if what I said felt at all dismissive.

Heart

Oh Heart, I don't feel you're being dismissive in the slightest - never, ever.

The above post makes me feel hugged by you. Thanks, Heart. It's nice to feel that it's okay to be honest and vulnerable, and to have someone reach out and hug you.

I, too, see Feminism as the only effective discourse for addressing "misogyny, sexism, homophobia, ageism. racism, etc....".

I've spent ten years searching gender theory for a way to address these issues. It's just not there. Even if everyone REALLY understood the semantical jiujitsu's of gender theory, it's not there.