Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by June

Are you telling me that I am behaving in a masculine way here? That I am taking up too much space like a man will in womans space? What exactly is your point? I get that you don't want me here in this Lesbian space sharing my Lesbian ideas and thoughts because they make you uncomfortable, but I do not get that last paragraph at all.

June,

I wish I could respond to you. But your attitude, your anger, your rudeness made it difficult for me to read more than a line or 2 of your response.

I do not wish to waste my energy trying to respond to a continuous litany of yeah but, yeah but, yeah but.

Should you wish to have a different type of dialogue, I am always happy to discuss it with you. You know where to find me.

[Toughy]

wow........

a butch lesbian telling a femme lesbian she is angry rude and has an attitude...because her feminine lesbian experience is different from said butch's lesbian experience.....talks about that femme as if she is not a lesbian and questions her intent????

just wow

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by June

This is complete bullshit. You came at me insinuating I wasn't a good Lesbian and I wasn't participating with a good heart and managed to make several snarky, nasty digs at me and my character, and then I take the time to respond to you and you condescendingly dismiss me because I'm not worth your time?

You might as well have patted me on the head and told me not to be so hysterical.

Kobi -- You clearly have no problem dishing it out, but when a woman, in this case, a Femme (and yes, I think that's relative) gives it back to you, all of a sudden she loses all value. This type of behavior is evocative of what I was referring to back in my corporate days.

June,

With all due respect, to me, your response is bullshit.

I didnt come at you. You wrote something I found offensive and I told you how it made me feel, what it represented to me, and why I felt that way. That is being honest, above board, and straightforward. And, it was done, I think, without taking personal pot shots at you, June, the person.

And, now you apparently have the need to add a bunch of value judgements and assumptions to it in a pretty personally insulting way as to what I said or meant. That is your right to do so. But, lets not confuse what I said and how I said it with your current level of defensiveness because you didnt care for what I said or how what you did made me feel.

If you want to understand what people here have been trying to discuss and why, it requires listening. If you want to genuinely understand, I am happy to answer your questions.

I will not, however, be drawn into an unhealthy and counterproductive interaction with you. That is not communicating or having a dialogue. That is a sparring match.

You seem to think you have a great deal of "insight" into other people's behavior. Maybe you do, maybe you dont. But, to me, it would be helpful to perhaps putting a little more energy into looking at your own behavior.

If I was rude and disrespectful to you, your response would be understandable. I was neither.

[ScandalAndy]

This is going to sound naive, and for that i apologize but...


Why are we fighting?


I get that Kobi and June's ways of interpreting and assimilating the world around them are very different.

I am really confused. I tend to function much like June does where I do not want to establish my identity by destroying anyone else's. Sometimes that makes me come across as a bit "la-dee-da, let's accept everone" and flighty in my worldview. I also understand how that could be a little off-putting to Kobi, since her process is different and progresses using small steps with regular self-examination and settling into a new routine of thinking. (Kobi, please let me know if i misinterpreted, I promise i mean no offense by this, i'm just trying to make sure i understand) I think both these approaches are valid and I like to use some of each when tackling new things that I must adjust to.


Aren't we all working towards the mutual goal of sharing our own personal experiences and reinforcing our pride and support of each other? I think there is common ground here and I hope we can all find it. The tension and hurt and anger here is somewhat frightening to me since it seems to have exploded out like it's been bubbling under the surface for a while. I hope you all can help me understand why we are reacting with anger. That seems like it would push us further apart in the end...

[Admin]

Kobi and June -

You need to take this line of conversation private. This is not the Red Zone, unless you think this discussion needs to be moved there.


ETA: Clarifying that I mean the personal stuff and not the actual constructive part.

Thanks,
Admin

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm personally feeling slightly stupid. I thought Michigan festival changed it's stance and let transwomen in. No? ah. ok. I'd kind of feel weird about attending a women's festival that doesn't include all women.

There's a place in wales called Women's Land. Only females are allowed - no male children or dogs - are allowed. I do know the history of how the place got started as I know one of the women who was part of it and left it and frankly, I'm disgusted at how atrocious those women acted to one another, but that's a different story, I'm just not convinced a place that's "all xx females, all the time" is going to be safe by default. That's not exactly been my experience.

I do know some women who live there - I actually do think those gals need a seperate space as I really don't think they are able to cope with outside life and I'm glad they have a place to be. However, I won't ever visit them on Women's Land because - to be blunt - I think the vibe there is fucking nuts. I don't find it safe in ANY way shape or form.

I personally have been raped by a hella lot of men. But I've also been publicly mauled by women, trans and all other rainbow people of every flavour. No matter what the sex or gender, it's been seen as perfectly ok to grab my tits, slap my tits, pinch my ass, pat my cunt through my skirt, pinch my upper thighs, etc. So, due to my experince, before assuming ANY space is safe enough to express ANY sexuality (sexy dressing, nudity, play etc) I'm going to assess it in a covered and protective manner. One of things that has really upset me since going gay-er is nocticing how piggish I get treated by queers (and that includes ALL genders). I have had to re-asses the concept of "safety."

There's a point in there somewhere, but it's probably personal.

[ScandalAndy]

If I had a dollar for every time someone molested my chest without so much as speaking to me, let alone going so far as ASKING, I'd be a rich woman indeed. Gay men think it's perfectly fine to squeeze my breasts, and i've been motorboated by women I've never met.

I concur that there is quite a bit of boundary crossing in the queer community. It makes me uncomfortable, but I'm not really sure how to deal with it as the last time I slapped a gay man's hand away he asked me why I was being such a bitch.

Thank you for your post. I didn't think i was being unreasonable, but there was some self doubt there. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has issues navigating "safe" space of any kind.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I'm personally feeling slightly stupid. I thought Michigan festival changed it's stance and let transwomen in. No? ah. ok. I'd kind of feel weird about attending a women's festival that doesn't include all women.

There's a place in wales called Women's Land. Only females are allowed - no male children or dogs - are allowed. I do know the history of how the place got started as I know one of the women who was part of it and left it and frankly, I'm disgusted at how atrocious those women acted to one another, but that's a different story, I'm just not convinced a place that's "all xx females, all the time" is going to be safe by default. That's not exactly been my experience.

I do know some women who live there - I actually do think those gals need a seperate space as I really don't think they are able to cope with outside life and I'm glad they have a place to be. However, I won't ever visit them on Women's Land because - to be blunt - I think the vibe there is fucking nuts. I don't find it safe in ANY way shape or form.

I personally have been raped by a hella lot of men. But I've also been publicly mauled by women, trans and all other rainbow people of every flavour. No matter what the sex or gender, it's been seen as perfectly ok to grab my tits, slap my tits, pinch my ass, pat my cunt through my skirt, pinch my upper thighs, etc. So, due to my experince, before assuming ANY space is safe enough to express ANY sexuality (sexy dressing, nudity, play etc) I'm going to assess it in a covered and protective manner. One of things that has really upset me since going gay-er is nocticing how piggish I get treated by queers (and that includes ALL genders). I have had to re-asses the concept of "safety."

There's a point in there somewhere, but it's probably personal.

[Heart]

Of course women can be shitty and oppressive. Women are human.

But that can obscure the fact that as a group men commit the bulk of both public and private violence and oppression. The vast bulk. Men hold the institutional power (like white folks do) and that changes the game when it comes to enacting oppression.

I too am the mother of a son. He's a decent, thoughtful, respectful young man. I work with numerous feminist male allies. One of the things that makes them allies is that they know they carry male privilege. Without that awareness, they cannot be allies.

As for safe space -- I've learned over the years that it's not created simply by filling it with those who are alike in terms of identity or even experience. That creates a superficial kind of safety. It takes enormous effort to create a safe accountable space. The fact that safe space doesn't always work is really about the trauma of oppression. It is very easy and common for the oppressed to become oppressive. Those in the space must be accountable for their actions and the way they share the space. That's largely the topic in Aj's new thread about community.

Heart

[imperfect_cupcake]

As for safe space -- I've learned over the years that it's not created simply by filling it with those who are alike in terms of identity or even experience. That creates a superficial kind of safety. It takes enormous effort to create a safe accountable space. The fact that safe space doesn't always work is really about the trauma of oppression. It is very easy and common for the oppressed to become oppressive. Those in the space must be accountable for their actions and the way they share the space. That's largely the topic in Aj's new thread about community.

I'll check that out. as I said, I'm not sure what my point was, I think I was addressing half a dozen posts at the same time and not really linking to it - my lazymind and fingers. There *are* a LOT of people who do actually assume that a women only space is going to be safe and that's really not been my experience and a hard pill to swallow. And really really upsetting. It took me a long time to come to terms with dealing with the human aspect of safety, rather than the gender. There was some deep mourning of expectations to be had.

S.Andy - fuckin eh. I once grabbed a butch by the scruff and twisted her collar tight and rammed her into a wall for slapping my tits. She yelled "watch the shirt! I paid a lot of money for it!" my response was "and I paid a lot of money for my tits." I wanted to rip her lungs out. That wasn't over-reacting as far as I'm concerned. It took me a long time to understand I had the right to physically correct people who physically grabbed me without asking. Gender, nor gender presentation seems to make a difference in group space with how much I get grabbed if I'm wearing a low top or a tight skirt.

sulky fag who asked what your problem knew exactly what was wrong. Next time grab his balls and use a vice grip.