Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Kobi]

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

I was simply using cisgendered as an example of something we do in the community that, in fact, divert us from more useful ends. I was not trying to derail the thread into trans territory again. No purpose is served by that. I would've liked to have seen this thread be a thread about how we, as lesbians, can keep lesbian culture alive. Lesbian culture made me the woman I am today and I think that if we let it die, then we will have a poorer world for it! That is what I was hoping this thread would be about.

I think that thread would be useful. I think that topic can be discussed without even ONCE having to divert into all of this other stuff that is not, in fact, about preserving lesbian culture so that if my granddaughter should happen to grow up and be a woman-loving-woman her generation won't have to feel like they are reinventing the wheel. That, to me, is a conversation worth having. I am, for the purposes of that conversation, willing to show up and do my part presuming that 'woman' is large enough to include a woman like me which is how I initially entered into this conversation.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Kobi

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

Kobi,

I respect your wanting to have a place to discuss Lesbian pride and Lesbian culture. And when the topics have stuck to those things, I have stayed out of the thread. However, that has not been the only topic discussed here, and some things have been said that I consider VERY relevant to trans people and how they fit into the queer community. I will give you some specific examples to back up this claim:

Chazz said:

How about jettisoning the concept of gender entirely? I know, it's a lot to get ones brain around. Patriarchy is counting on that.

And:

SEX (biology) = female/male, woman/man, girl/boy (nouns)

GENDER (a cultural construct based on sex) = feminine/masculine, womanly/manly, girlish/boyish (adjectives)

And,

Gender theory DOES promote a binary system. It "sanctions" going from point A on a binary scale to point Z. Everything in between is a matter of gender constructed degree.

No, Slater.... Adult females will always be women.

It doesn't matter if a gender system is binary or not. Gender mythology is the issue. Having 10,000 variations of a myth doesn't change the fact that it's a myth, especially when it comes to patriarchy. (Patriarchy is very adaptable.)

Slater said:

But it is also used as a gender identity. At one time, and still pervasively, sex and gender were used interchangeably as though they were one and the same. But if you allow for a non-binary gender system, then you have to allow for the possibility that there will be adult females who are not women, who are, for instance, butch.

The language of sex and gender has been so tightly interwoven, so tightly tied to a binary system, that trying to pull them apart can create these sorts of usage stumbling blocks.

And Heart said:

Your description of what trans men and women may experience via gender dysphoria combined with misogyny and violence is poignant, and actually reinforces my point about the importance of under-girding gender/queer/trans theory with feminism, but it strikes me that you are the one creating an oppression olympics by implying that transfolks somehow experience the pinnacle of oppression. Maybe, maybe not. How would you compare the experiences of a white transman with a lesbian of color? Not that we should compare, but do you see my point?

I get that cutting edge scholarship is about multiple gender presentations and identities being recognized and I think that's valid, I just wish it had not been so separated from feminist theory. I don't disagree that an individual has the right to choose their label, (one of the central tenets of gender theory), but asserting that continues to miss the point (that I think I tried to make) of what a privileged position it is to self-label. Why am I saying that? Not to dismiss self-identity, but to remember that the extraordinary majority of women do not have that option, in fact do not have any options with regard to any kind of self-actualization, including who or if they will marry, and whether or not they will control their own reproduction.

And she said this:

I also agree that identity is personal, but I see a definite relationship between misogyny and the undervaluing of woman in terms of social, systemic, and academic trends related to identity. Plus I have a personal reaction to what I have seen in my own communities about people's decisions to jettison their identities as women, and I shared that.

And this:

What agitates me is not whether a lesbian sleeps with a man. What agitates me is the loss of people identifying as women in favor of trans/gender-queer/3rd-4th-5th gender identities. That's what gets to me. Since most of those abandoning the id of woman are in queer communities, it gets discussed in terms of queer identities, but for me, it's not the creation of ever newer and shinier queer identities, it's the lack of grounding in woman/female/feminism that makes me feel angry, afraid, and alone.

Now do I feel threatened when lesbians talk about lesbian pride and lesbian culture? Not even a little. I think lesbians are great. (I even used to ID that way before I got a better understanding of myself. I didn't transition because I hated lesbians. I don't. I transitioned because of who I am, not who I don't want to be.) But the things I quoted above are not about lesbian pride or lesbian culture. They are talking about gender and ID politics. These are things written by, according to my understanding, people who identify as lesbians. And they are talking about things that directly relate to trans identities. As a transguy, I have something to say about them because they are, in part, about people like me. If you folks talk about things that directly relate to trans identities, do I not, as a transguy, have a right to respond?

And, I have seen some nasty comments made and I decided to speak up about it. I was not responding as a transguy when I spoke up, I was speaking as a member of the human race.

[Medusa]

This is something I'd also like for you to consider, Kobi:

This conversation has not been solely about Lesbian pride or the politics of women. Many weavings have interlaced back to the (same) gender conversation we are having now and have had now for 10+years on these B/F sites.

I want to address what you said about "If I took my Lesbian identity to a Trans thread...". That is not what is happening here. Transmen and Male-identified Butches have not infiltrated this conversation to start preaching their identity politics. From my perspective, people have mostly respectfully read along and interjected when something pertains to them...and this conversation has circled Trans issues almost constantly.

The reason I bring this up is because (and I'll reiterate this), a "safe" zone for Lesbians on a site that has a large population of many different Queer identities does not mean that anyone who identifies as a Lesbian gets to have a private (but public) thread to tease apart Trans or any other identity while all of the Trans or any other identity are expected to sit back and watch with tape over their mouths. Especially given some of the dialog here that has attempted (whether intentionally or ignorantly) to paint Trans women as "not real".

And I would offer that you would probably be pretty uncomfortable if Trans men made a thread entitled "Reclaiming Trans Pride" that went almost 500 posts deep where Trans folks wanted to talk about how Lesbians had victimized them or acted badly once at MWMF or had made them feel unsafe or how their gender construct was invalid for whatever reason.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that I don't want these conversations to happen. I think we need to talk about what it is that makes people so fearful of one another that we keep clinging to stereotypes or unilateral thinking that results in "Im a victim, You're the oppressor" or "In order for me to be safe/heard/visible/valid, someone else needs to be excluded from the conversation."
(and theses aren't meant as absolutes, I'm thinking as I type)

Perhaps I'm feeling raw from having visited another forum specifically and explicitly for Lesbians and seeing the entire front page of one of their forums with 50% of the threads devoted to Trans identities and various ways that they are wrong/unsafe/intrusive/etc. etc. etc.

Because in my world, pride in our shared history means we aren't "foxhole bonding" over who we perceive to be a common enemy. This isn't to say we shouldn't discuss oppression, because that is certainly part of our history, but our history is not our oppression. Our history is also the things we have accomplished, the ways we have empowered and uplifted one another, and the celebration of each other as women.

[Toughy]

I am a butch female woman kind of lesbian, dyke, female homosexual. I have also had (GASP) good sex with biomen. Sex is sex and pair bonding is pair bonding. Both are fluid things in my almost 60 years on the planet. Granted in the last 30 years my sexual and pair bonding has been exclusively with femmes.

Like Heart I sometimes really do believe it was a choice to have sex and pair bond with women (as adult females) and femmes. Had I chosen to pair bond with men I would be a women's basketball coach at the college or professional level. I chose differently and I am happy with my choice. I have made a huge difference in the world in a different way than as a women's basketball coach.

Fuck the gold star toaster oven test.........please take your stuff and put it with Michelle Bachman and the rest of the fundamentalist monotheist patriarchal folks.

I am proud to be a big ole fucking dyke.............lesbian as this thread defines it. I have no use for anyone who tells me I can not be a lesbian who has pride just because I liked sex and almost married a bioman once upon a time.

Kobi.........this thread keeps going round and round because many of us here don't fit or agree with your definition of what lesbian and lesbian pride means. You can have your reality of lesbian and lesbian pride......guess what I get mine also and they are not the same at all in any way. I defended you once when you first came here. I hoped your learning curve would catch up.........in my mind it has not.

I want and need lesbian space, women space. My version is inclusive and yours is exclusive..........yours is a tiny world that has no room for growth and inclusion of the next generation(s). It is no wonder the younger folks and many of us in your generation don't want shit to do with your version of lesbian pride and feminism. I like blue and yellow and find room for both in my identity as a lesbian.

And just for the record...........your dismissing Heart is no different than any other masculine being dismissing a feminine being.......it's the patriarchy at work.

[Kobi]

Aj,

As always I have a great deal of respect for you and the risks you have taken here. We have discussed it before and my respect has not changed.

Lesbians do have a herstory and it would be nice for that to be perserved, to be respected, to be perpetuated for our children, grandchildren, and all future generations.

People are people. We have discussed ideal based approaches versus reality based approaches. In ideal realms we can deny, ignore, and/or dictate a utopia. In reality issues will arise. Changing hearts and minds is best done by example and by talking. A 2x4 upside the head accomplishes nothing but fueling more hatred.

You have endured some harsh realities in life. I have endured some harsh realities. But, we are both fighting for the same things. I am proud to stand beside you and call you a sister. There will be issues. I dont think they are insurmountable.

June,

Again, what you are hearing is being filtered thru something which is not my intent. I can attempt to discuss it with you. It seems very clear to me that you have formed opinions and anything I say will be seen within those opinions. Thus, I dont feel heard. I feel I have to defend and I am tired of defending the right to be heard.

Again, if Aj came in here and said I have an issue....you would be knocking heads. If a transman came in and said I have issues....you would be knocking heads. I come in as a woman and a lesbian and your behavior is to knock me. Thats a funky standard that seems to be a manifestation of internalized misogyny.

Of course say that leaves me wide open to the usual and customary tirade. Been there, heard that, cutting and pasting will save time. Wont increase communication tho.

Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

[Toughy]

by Kobi
And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

and I call bullshit when I see it...............

[Glenn]

I'm gonna get some more popcorn for this! *runs out the courtroom*

[Toughy]

Kobi...........damn this is getting old

you just dismissed another lesbian, only it's a lesbian of the butch persuasion....only this time it has a transphobic nature to it...........I rarely ever call transphobia............but it's abundantly clear to me now you are of that persuasion.........

get a fucking grip dude.....I am sorry I ever defended you...........you obviously have not learned a damn thing in your time here........

free your mind.....

[Toughy]

and just cuz I am in a piling mood........

funny you ignore me........what is it????.......... you can't fathom or respond to a butch who fucked men and liked it and claims lesbian???????????????

[Kobi]

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

reading and understanding are not the same thing....................obviously

truth is fleeting
understanding is growth

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

oh goody............take your toys and go home...because no one wanted to play by your rules.....

this crap is not even worthy of 'popcorn'.,.............

[atomiczombie]

I am in red:

Originally Posted by Kobi

[COLOR="Navy"]
Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

Ok.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

No arguments here.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

Hmm, so when lesbians talk about gender and ID politics, they are not sometimes also defining the trans experience? I don't feel threatened. I feel frustrated when the people I quoted say the things they said in those quotes and then some pretend they are saying things that have nothing to do with trans people. Or, they blatantly say things about trans people, and yet I am told that I have no right to respond because it's a lesbian thread. When Chazz said that the concept of gender is a construct of patriarchy, that erases me and my gender. And yes, I was responding as a trans guy.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

I was talking as a human being when I asked you if you were really questioning what Heart stands for based on who she sleeps with.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

I never spoke for you or tried to interpret your reality. Where are you getting that?

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

How has this thread become trans oriented? The topics have been all over the place - misogyny, patriarchy, the definition of lesbian, who qualifies, etc. Not just about gender ID politics and trans issues, although they have frequently come up.

[Cin]

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

First of all- Holy hell! So many labels! The politics of sex and gender have befuddled me since my teens.

I ID as GODDESS! Yep, thats right and it has nothing to do with my dissociation with patriarchy. I'm not any ONE thing but a clear evolution of many things. As I move through the universe I shift, change, explore and to be honest I wouldn't allow anything to influence my desires.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

This is totally correct in my world perception. I too have a son and males I love. I often feel a need to teach them to love. I actually know LOTS of male feminist who love, honor and adore women. IMO feminine energy is Divine. This does not mean male energy is disregarded but not primary. You can't compare matriarchy with patriarchy. They each act differently or at less in my matriarchal world.

I find it hard to call myself a lesbian. I find it hard to call myself anything, however I do love and honor feminine energy wherever it is present.

[TruTexan]

I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin.
I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING!
Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin.

And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. The institution of marriage has evolved past many of the patriarchal limits it held in the past (lots of new data on marriage being published).

I sometimes get a little upset with many discussions on feminism completely focusing on middle class, white, childless perspectives. This too, is just not the reality any longer. Feminism has evolved and grown along with the changes in demographics of the US (including gender studies) and just cannot be viewed in the same old ways.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

And that describes ME. So, I get to talk about stuff related to my life including my thoughts/ideas about trans, cis, feminism, sleeping with men, etc. Unless of course you have a particular set of topics for us lesbian females to discuss that meet with your approval.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

I have probably talked about misogyny more times in these threads than any other poster, and have put myself on the firing line time and time again on these boards. I don't have to prove myself to you Kobi, but what really irks me, is the lack of respect you are showing for other posters here, including the very lesbians you claim to want to give space to.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.
In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Excuse me? I don't need your benefit of the doubt Kobi. Bring it. Your vague disparaging of my intent and character started when I mentioned sleeping with men. You launched into your tirade about what the true definition of a lesbian is. So, no mystery Kobi - you are being perfectly well understood.

Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

Oh no Kobi -- I'm more comfortable kicking the fence over -- so let me make it clear to you one more time: I'm a lesbian, a dyke, a woman who fucks women. I have also fucked men -- and been raped by one too. I'm the mother of a son and I would never live on any "safe land" that rejected him due to his gender. I am fiercely feminist and my work and life are about empowering women and girls whether they are straight, lesbian, bi, trans, or unaffiliated. Oh, and I welcome trans women into MY lesbian/female spaces, and their issues are mine. So check it out Kobi -- THIS is what a lesbian feminist looks like.

I'm in this color - and I am PISSED.

Heart