Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Kobi]

Aj,

As always I have a great deal of respect for you and the risks you have taken here. We have discussed it before and my respect has not changed.

Lesbians do have a herstory and it would be nice for that to be perserved, to be respected, to be perpetuated for our children, grandchildren, and all future generations.

People are people. We have discussed ideal based approaches versus reality based approaches. In ideal realms we can deny, ignore, and/or dictate a utopia. In reality issues will arise. Changing hearts and minds is best done by example and by talking. A 2x4 upside the head accomplishes nothing but fueling more hatred.

You have endured some harsh realities in life. I have endured some harsh realities. But, we are both fighting for the same things. I am proud to stand beside you and call you a sister. There will be issues. I dont think they are insurmountable.

June,

Again, what you are hearing is being filtered thru something which is not my intent. I can attempt to discuss it with you. It seems very clear to me that you have formed opinions and anything I say will be seen within those opinions. Thus, I dont feel heard. I feel I have to defend and I am tired of defending the right to be heard.

Again, if Aj came in here and said I have an issue....you would be knocking heads. If a transman came in and said I have issues....you would be knocking heads. I come in as a woman and a lesbian and your behavior is to knock me. Thats a funky standard that seems to be a manifestation of internalized misogyny.

Of course say that leaves me wide open to the usual and customary tirade. Been there, heard that, cutting and pasting will save time. Wont increase communication tho.

Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

[Toughy]

by Kobi
And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

and I call bullshit when I see it...............

[Glenn]

I'm gonna get some more popcorn for this! *runs out the courtroom*

[Toughy]

Kobi...........damn this is getting old

you just dismissed another lesbian, only it's a lesbian of the butch persuasion....only this time it has a transphobic nature to it...........I rarely ever call transphobia............but it's abundantly clear to me now you are of that persuasion.........

get a fucking grip dude.....I am sorry I ever defended you...........you obviously have not learned a damn thing in your time here........

free your mind.....

[Toughy]

and just cuz I am in a piling mood........

funny you ignore me........what is it????.......... you can't fathom or respond to a butch who fucked men and liked it and claims lesbian???????????????

[Kobi]

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

reading and understanding are not the same thing....................obviously

truth is fleeting
understanding is growth

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

oh goody............take your toys and go home...because no one wanted to play by your rules.....

this crap is not even worthy of 'popcorn'.,.............

[Softhearted]

I feel like doing a "post-by"... This thread is getting more confusing...

[atomiczombie]

I am in red:

Originally Posted by Kobi

[COLOR="Navy"]
Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

Ok.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

No arguments here.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

Hmm, so when lesbians talk about gender and ID politics, they are not sometimes also defining the trans experience? I don't feel threatened. I feel frustrated when the people I quoted say the things they said in those quotes and then some pretend they are saying things that have nothing to do with trans people. Or, they blatantly say things about trans people, and yet I am told that I have no right to respond because it's a lesbian thread. When Chazz said that the concept of gender is a construct of patriarchy, that erases me and my gender. And yes, I was responding as a trans guy.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

I was talking as a human being when I asked you if you were really questioning what Heart stands for based on who she sleeps with.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

I never spoke for you or tried to interpret your reality. Where are you getting that?

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

How has this thread become trans oriented? The topics have been all over the place - misogyny, patriarchy, the definition of lesbian, who qualifies, etc. Not just about gender ID politics and trans issues, although they have frequently come up.

[Cin]

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

First of all- Holy hell! So many labels! The politics of sex and gender have befuddled me since my teens.

I ID as GODDESS! Yep, thats right and it has nothing to do with my dissociation with patriarchy. I'm not any ONE thing but a clear evolution of many things. As I move through the universe I shift, change, explore and to be honest I wouldn't allow anything to influence my desires.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

This is totally correct in my world perception. I too have a son and males I love. I often feel a need to teach them to love. I actually know LOTS of male feminist who love, honor and adore women. IMO feminine energy is Divine. This does not mean male energy is disregarded but not primary. You can't compare matriarchy with patriarchy. They each act differently or at less in my matriarchal world.

I find it hard to call myself a lesbian. I find it hard to call myself anything, however I do love and honor feminine energy wherever it is present.

[TruTexan]

I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin.
I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING!
Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin.

And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by TruTexan

I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin.
I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING!
Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin.

And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.

Hi Tru Texan. I am also a proud lesbian and a butch, as well as a feminist.

Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort.

Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman.

Hopefully this helps.

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Hi Tru Texan. I am also a proud lesbian and a butch, as well as a feminist.

Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort.

Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman.

Hopefully this helps.

Uhm, that just confused me even more?!??
Can you give me an example of a person in general, so I can fully grasp this concept?
I don't get it, I mean how can you ID as female but not as woman?
If I say I am female ID"d butch on this site, what exactly does that mean now that I am totally confused. Does that mean to another person reading my ID here that I don't equate my female to mean I am woman?
HELP???? And thank you Miss Tick for answering and trying to help me understand atleast this one particular IDying.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. The institution of marriage has evolved past many of the patriarchal limits it held in the past (lots of new data on marriage being published).

I sometimes get a little upset with many discussions on feminism completely focusing on middle class, white, childless perspectives. This too, is just not the reality any longer. Feminism has evolved and grown along with the changes in demographics of the US (including gender studies) and just cannot be viewed in the same old ways.