Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

I was showing examples of labels and norms that tend to go with those labels... my wife has not labeled herself femme - others have in the past because at times, she wears makeup and likes to dress up - but the hazards of labeling one another are that she doesn't necessarily want to be categorized as a femme. To the GLBT community, I am seen as butch as much as I am seen as a man - however, to hetero people, I come off as more feminine than masculine some of the time. Different people attach different norms to what is masculine and what is feminine. And masculinity means different things to different people - I think ANYONE can be masculine, male, female, butch, femme. I wasn't suggesting only a man can be masculine, nor that only a woman can be feminine - or that butch or femme are gender specific even. My point was exactly that - I don't feel we should attach rules and norms to labels, nor do I feel we need to label other people according to our understanding of said labels. If I'm not making sense, blame it on not enough coffee this morning.

And.... I didn't - and wouldn't - suggest your identity is abnormal. Anyone who knows me, knows I am the last person to do so - I am a Women & Gender Studies minor and am passionate about respecting others based on THEIR identity, not based on societal norms.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for clarifying SMM

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

You took that out of context - and I indicated (or so I thought) that I was talking about perceived norms (i.e. others' perceptions - not mine). I was pointing out that we - as a society - have a tendency to label others according to our own perceived norms... I don't label people and tell them how they should ID, nor do I attach norms to labels. My point was that because Stacy sometimes wears makeup, and dresses feminine, she gets labeled by others in the community as femme. Please point out to me where I said _____ IS what femmes are/do. I said it before but it obviously bears repeating... I am against labeling one another and against setting boundaries for what male/female/butch/femme'masculine/feminine means. By discussing others' perceptions/attitudes - does not make them my own.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

Nope - not at all. Again, I was referring to how others tend to perceive what is femme/butch/masculine/feminine - not how I see it. In my opinion, a person can wear jeans, combat boots, and a t shirt with no makeup and be one kickass femme. I also believe a person can wear make-up and be as butch as the next. I have been known to wear eyeliner... my whole point - and perhaps I'm just failing at finding the right words here - however, when I talk about societal norms and others' perceptions, I don't see how that gets equated to what I think/feel...

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Good point - I would just like to add, and I hope Stacy doesn't mind my saying this - neither of us are really all that into labels, but Stacy has tended to fall in with the femmes, however, does not always fit the femme normative. She has days one might call her butch. I am a man, however, sometimes I do things that are more feminine normative. I'm certainly not macho. I think, as a community, we would serve one another better by focusing less on labels and more on people, and on celebrating what makes us unique more than what makes us 'fit'. I know that as human beings, even subconsciously, we are driven to categorize and label... I'm just making a conscious effort to stop looking at how and where people fit best, and just let them be who they are - however they are.

I don't see where you stated perceived norms and i read it that you were talking about your opinions...that is how it reads anyways. Accusing me of taking you out of context is a little far fetched and hence why i asked for clarification AND thanked you in advance.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLast

I don't think that "all" of us stick with butch-femme as masculine-feminine in this manner. Your premise feels faulty to me. I could be wrong about this. Butch also refers to gay men with certain parameters and I use these terms in some instances for heterosexuals. Although, these examples are based upon sexual orientation and I think we within the B/F community have a much broader interpretation because we seem to be a "sub-culture" in which gender theory has become a part of our queer identification- which for me, goes to the evolutionary aspects of my prior post.

Now, I have to say, however, that portions of our sub-culture may not have done this exploration. I wish I could refer to some studies here, but can't and I know that I could have a bias going on. Although, I am from "olden days," personal experience with transgendered individuals as well as an intergendered relative brought some of these questions, issues and ways of expanding gender came to me fairly early. Having to keep up with issues of both gender and sexuality has also been part of my professional life.

I know (and have seen) instances of unfamiliarity with current gender theories occurs here on this site for example. And most certainly on the dash site as well. Yet, because we discuss just about everything on this site, I don't think it takes very long for someone that joins to begin to see that matters of gender are part of this community and they can take information from here and start to educate themselves. Consequently, I don't think that the B/F community does use masculine and feminine as interchangeable with butch-femme in the manner I think you are doing.

Butch for me has masculine constructs blended with feminine constructs, for example but I am not male, I am female. My femininity is of a masculine nature as far as traditional definitions. But m presentation overall is far from the traditional contexts of gender roles. I can't speak to this for other butches or for femmes within their personal expression.

The other thing that comes to mind for me is that for a good long time, butches and femmes met with negative judgment from the more radical or separatist lesbian community. This is not true of the entire spectrum of lesbians, but could have had an effect in butches and femmes needing to defend their "brand" of lesbianism. Today, we have different concepts about the whole sexuality area as well. All part of that evolution.

I just don't experience any of this labels, terms, identifications as traditional at all at this time of my life. And to be honest, I see this within my peer group of B/F identity. I also see this among younger people more and more.

I can't make generalizations about any of this. If there is anything I have learned from people interacting on our websites, is that they are quite diverse in relationship to masculinity and femininity no matter their gender identification.

I don't experience this community using this language in any other way except to communicate ideas with terms that, although having diverse meanings, are common among us. But as in all communication, taking the time to find out what a person means by these terms in relation to what is being communicated is important. But if we don’t have a common language, how can we even begin to articulate our thoughts and feelings?

We don’t all have the same concepts of masculinity and femininity at all.

Here I disagree with you somewhat. I think that on this forum and in the greater butch/femme community, there is still a strong tendency to equate butch with being largely masculine and femme largely feminine. I think there are who think otherwise, but that are not the majority. Or at least we all act as though it's self-evident, or that it's the norm in our community, when it isn't. If we take any thread around here (for example, one a while back on why butches were attracted to femmes) that deals with butch/femme attraction, the discussion is often heavily weighted by assumptions of one identity being masculine and the other feminine and the contrast between the two.

I see a pattern that happens fairly consistently on the forum, even among long time members, where we get into these topics of the nature mentioned above or where we talk about each others' identity, and a lot of people go on about it being the "masculinity" of the butch or "femininity" of the femme that attracts them. Or that they felt butch as a kid because they liked masculine things and feminine females, or femme because they liked feminine things and masculine females. Then another user, who doesn't fit the stereotype, comes along and calls bullshit. Or they come and say that they don't think such and such is tell-tale of being butch/femme, because they were different as a child. Then there's a tremendous amount of backpeddling and debating until we all agree once again that "masculinity" and "femininity" are subjective. Butch and femme are subjective. Etc. etc.

It's a pretty distinct pattern/occurrence here and the fact that it keeps happening, I think, demonstrates that our community is able to accept certain concepts when they're explicitly stated, but that we fall back into our original assumptions and stereotypes about the dynamic as soon as they fade even slightly from sight.

But it always requires that the people who don't fit the stereotype come back and perpetually reassert themselves. If they didn't, what would happen?

As far as the international community outside this site, if we look at the recent split that occurred with Butch Voices over there in the states and the altering of language so that the conference encompassed "masculine of centre" individuals, again we see heavily weighted language. What is masculine? Who is masculine? Is the conference now for masculine femmes and not for feminine butches? I know that they've given their reasons, but there are a lot of underlying implications that go unaddressed in the greater community.

If we look at even the literature on butch/femme, masculine female, transmale etc. identities both in the 90's and in the 2000s/present day, again, we see heavily weighted language that relies on masculinity and femininity. When it discusses butch/femme dynamics it still discusses masculine vs. feminine. Our communities around the world still reflect that, even if some of us have come to see it differently. It's really only literature that discusses butch or trans identities specifically (and only in some cases) that really start to ditch the terms masculinity and femininity and only navigate them as far as what they mean in the heteronormative world. The majority of modern literature that discusses the modern butch/femme dynamic still operates on the understanding of butch/femme as masculine/feminine.

So I really don't think that's disappeared from our community. In fact, I think it's still pretty prevalent. That's my two cents, anyway.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This part of your post is more what I'm talking about and hoping from this discussion! My question in response to your question (maybe I have too many fucking question? ) as far as what what words would I/we use to describe butch or femme: Why do we need preset words to describe butch and femme? Why can't they just be what that specific butch or femme describes themselves as? Considering the amount of language the b/f community and queer community as a whole has already created to describe itself, I don't think it's really a problem to allow each person to define themselves in whatever terms they'd like. Which, to me, means dropping the assumption that we all see the dynamic as one between "masculine" and "feminine" identities, or where they are mixed an identity that is more "masculine" and one that is more "feminine."

Well the problem I see with butch and femme as the language used exclusively without the precursor of masculine and feminine is that the terms butch/femme together as a dynamic and butch and femme separately as individuals already comes with preconceived notions and lots of baggage. If you are looking for vocabulary that can assist with dropping or unlearning the assumption that the dynamic of butch/femme is about masculine and feminine queered then I really think you need terminology that is not already rife with meaning.

Over time, butch and femme have gone from not particularly controlled terms, to very controlled term, and now have come back full circle to not particularly controlled terms.

I think they are controlled enough terms that if you are looking for a way to identify and/or understand yourself and others that does not rely on an understanding of traits and characteristics directly related to the traits and characteristics understood as masculine or feminine you might want to look elsewhere.

In some respects I see masculine and feminine as remnants of a time when they were heavily controlled within the community. Part of my point is that if we continue to use them, then it should be on an individual open/limitless sense, rather than using them as set defining terms for the dynamic.

I would argue that many of already do this. But perhaps I am wrong about that.

I also fully understand where this becomes problematic for myself (and perhaps for some others). As I mentioned before, what then defines my attraction to femmes if not femininity, and a femme's attraction to butches if not masculinity? I guess I'm coming to closer to feeling like the answer to that, for me, is how each one actually defies the socially accepted categories. Perhaps (speaking for myself only of course) it's that complete denial of socially accepted masculinity/femininity coupled with individual physical characteristics (that neither define butch or femme) one just happens to find attractive.

Is that not the same as masculinity queered and femininity queered? Is that not what people mean when they speak of how hot they think masculinity in a female body is? Or how femmes queer femininity and find it so much more comfortable when it is in a queer context rather than in a heterosexual one?

All that can just be "femme" or "butch," no?

Well yes of course it could. It could also be tap shoes and ballerina slippers if we want. The same problems will exist of course. First butch and femme come with masculine and feminine baggage so is probably not the best choice. Yet it would only be a matter of time before tap shoes and ballerina slippers came with the same baggage. I think language is not the problem as much as certain way of thinking.

[SelfMadeMan]

Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:

You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa

You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes

You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such.

You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such.

You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU.

If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG.

I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

[weatherboi]

Uhhh nobody here is giving you the third degree. I asked for clarification with a thank you in advance. I am not sure if more niceties are needed than that for a forum conversation. I am not sure if the victimology you are owning about your experience is fair considering I asked for clarification and gave a thank you in advance. It is a discussion for me, it is not about winning, it is about learning.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

^ this felt like the 3rd degree to me, being that it was in reaction to a post I made in an attempt to show why we shouldn't label one another or attach norms to people... just sayin. And by "felt like" I am not suggesting that was the intention or a fact. I agree it isn't about winning - there's no competition. I came in to support everyone's right to be true to themselves without question. That's all. And no - niceties not needed, I don't feel victimized at all - hence the smiley at the end of what was just a tongue in cheek statement. I am sarcastic, I own it, and this time, perhaps just misheard, but I've been guilty before of not explaining myself adequately - it happens.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Well the problem I see with butch and femme as the language used exclusively without the precursor of masculine and feminine is that the terms butch/femme together as a dynamic and butch and femme separately as individuals already comes with preconceived notions and lots of baggage. If you are looking for vocabulary that can assist with dropping or unlearning the assumption that the dynamic of butch/femme is about masculine and feminine queered then I really think you need terminology that is not already rife with meaning.

I don't think so. If we look at butch/femme in the 50's and 60's, then yes it's got a shit ton of baggage. 30's/40's butch/femme a little less so, and post 90's butch/femme then definitely much, much less so.

You do make a good distinction, though, that definitely adds to the thread: butch or femme individuals vs. the butch/femme dynamic. Evidently one can come to shape the other (the individual and how the individual identity exists vs. how it exists within a relationship).

Personally, using that distinction that you made, I think we might be at a point, as a community, where we tend to drop masculine/feminine assumptions moreso as far as individual butches and femmes (though we still have a lot of work to do, it seems, as far as dropping generalizations) who specifically state that they don't fit the stereotype, but that we maintain that rigidity more when it comes to defining the dynamic itself. As though somehow the huge individual diversity got detached from the dynamic.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I think they are controlled enough terms that if you are looking for a way to identify and/or understand yourself and others that does not rely on an understanding of traits and characteristics directly related to the traits and characteristics understood as masculine or feminine you might want to look elsewhere.

Hmm...I don't think so. Even on this forum we've seen members pop up who talk about how they've felt that butch fits them, but that they have these characteristics and these characteristics that doesn't make them feel traditionally butch. I think it was controlled, but I think the community is making some effort to undo that. At least on an individual to individual basis (versus talking about generalizations).

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Is that not the same as masculinity queered and femininity queered? Is that not what people mean when they speak of how hot they think masculinity in a female body is? Or how femmes queer femininity and find it so much more comfortable when it is in a queer context rather than in a heterosexual one?

That's not the way I see it. When I see people talk about how femmes queer femininity/butches queer masculinity, I still see an underlying comparison or presupposition of an "original"...that there is some kind of original masculine/feminine form to be queered to begin with. If there wasn't, then we wouldn't be queering it. The very fact that it is queered means that there is a form that is unqueered, and that fact that one is queered and the other unqueered suggests original vs. queered.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

That's not the way I see it. When I see people talk about how femmes queer femininity/butches queer masculinity, I still see an underlying comparison or presupposition of an "original"...that there is some kind of original masculine/feminine form to be queered to begin with. If there wasn't, then we wouldn't be queering it. The very fact that it is queered means that there is a form that is unqueered, and that fact that one is queered and the other unqueered suggests original vs. queered.

But you said -

I also fully understand where this becomes problematic for myself (and perhaps for some others). As I mentioned before, what then defines my attraction to femmes if not femininity, and a femme's attraction to butches if not masculinity? I guess I'm coming to closer to feeling like the answer to that, for me, is how each one actually defies the socially accepted categories. Perhaps (speaking for myself only of course) it's that complete denial of socially accepted masculinity/femininity coupled with individual physical characteristics (that neither define butch or femme) one just happens to find attractive. All that can just be "femme" or "butch," no?

So I said:
Originally Posted by Miss Tick
Is that not the same as masculinity queered and femininity queered? Is that not what people mean when they speak of how hot they think masculinity in a female body is? Or how femmes queer femininity and find it so much more comfortable when it is in a queer context rather than in a heterosexual one?

So what you mean is that defying the socially accepted categories of masculinity and femininity does not mean queering them but instead it means denying the existence of masculine and feminine at all in any content or context in queer identity or vocabulary? Have I got it yet?

Hmm...I don't think so. Even on this forum we've seen members pop up who talk about how they've felt that butch fits them, but that they have these characteristics and these characteristics that doesn't make them feel traditionally butch. I think it was controlled, but I think the community is making some effort to undo that. At least on an individual to individual basis (versus talking about generalizations).

I do see effort but I don't see this becoming a wide spread belief. There still is quite a hierarchy. But I might be limited in my scope.

[weatherboi]

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

Fair enough - no harm done - and the funny thing is - we're on the same side of this.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

So what you mean is that defying the socially accepted categories of masculinity and femininity does not mean queering them but instead it means denying the existence of masculine and feminine at all in any content or context in queer identity or vocabulary? Have I got it yet?

That's the thing, is that it really isn't an either/or answer. And I'm starting to think that that might be what's happening in how my posts are being read. When I'm trying to work through my own thought process I structure it in my head as going through every argument that I can think of that strengthens or weakens either side of the argument. In this case I'm finding a weakness in certain arguments surrounding butch and femme identity, and the butch/femme dynamic...namely the weight that's placed on the use of masculine and feminine as defining factors. So often I'm considering both sides of the argument and seeing merits in both.

So that means that when I'm looking at the question you posed above, I'm thinking something to the effect of: Yes, on the one hand "queering" masculinity and femininity serves an important purpose. Greater heteronormative western society still sees masculinity and femininity as very rigid and defined according to interests/characteristics and according to assigned sex at birth. Those categories need to be broken, and one way to do that is to make them limitless, and to push society to perceive them as limitless and encompassing of anyone who wishes to adopt them.

Similarly, it can be important to possess masculinity and femininity as queer. This allows us to see that masculinity and femininity in the current form that we understand them in the western world is derived from a certain period in Greco-Roman history, which was slightly altered but largely maintained throughout the subsequent periods in history. It allows us to insert ourselves into a history that denied or looked down upon those who did not properly fit these categories. It does not insert modern queers into that history, but it takes into account that deviation has always existed and that history and language were largely written by those who did not deviate, or strove to maintain a certain norm.

On the other hand, there is still that lingering history mentioned above. As much as I have embraced the above two modes of thinking in the past and part of me still wants to, I still see logical opposition to it. I think that using these terms or taking them for our own still presupposes an original.

So in that respect, no I am not denying the existence of masculine and feminine in a queer context, because that would require that masculine and feminine in the queer context be completely uniform...which was part of my original argument: that masculine and feminine are not uniform.

However, what I am saying is that's it's worth considering that other words come to be used (simply butch and femme, for example, as I suggested earlier) in order to describe how exactly a butch is butch, and a femme is femme.

It's impossible for me to singlehandedly deny that masculine and feminine exist in any queer context. But I do still think there is a presupposition of a heteronormative original (which there is, given the origins of the words) even when we say that we "queer" these two terms. Like: "it was theirs, but now its ours." But that means that the "ours" did not exist before or at the same time as the creation of the "theirs." Which is incorrect, imo. It's just that language did not take it into account, and so I think we should strengthen our own language.

[BullDog]

I am a butch woman who fully embraces my masculinity (and no I don't have a precise definition for that, but it is very much a part of who I am). My relationship with my femme partner is very much a yin-yang, butch femme dance based on the contrasting energies of masculinity and femininity. It works for us. Of course that isn't the sole reason for our mutual attraction, but it certainly is a major piece.

I don't see how doing away with the terms masculine and feminine or coming up with firm definitions of what those terms meant would improve anything. I am confused. Then people will want precise definitions of what butch and femme mean.

My masculinity is not based on any heteronormative standards at all. I have had both female and male role models throughout my life. The way I present, carry myself and my inner sense of self comes from both.

Masculine does not equal male- that's been my rallying cry at online butch femme sites for over a decade. I will not be defined by heteronormative or male standards (although I do support my trans and butch brothers who do identify as male).

Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me.