Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

Fair enough - no harm done - and the funny thing is - we're on the same side of this.

[BullDog]

I am a butch woman who fully embraces my masculinity (and no I don't have a precise definition for that, but it is very much a part of who I am). My relationship with my femme partner is very much a yin-yang, butch femme dance based on the contrasting energies of masculinity and femininity. It works for us. Of course that isn't the sole reason for our mutual attraction, but it certainly is a major piece.

I don't see how doing away with the terms masculine and feminine or coming up with firm definitions of what those terms meant would improve anything. I am confused. Then people will want precise definitions of what butch and femme mean.

My masculinity is not based on any heteronormative standards at all. I have had both female and male role models throughout my life. The way I present, carry myself and my inner sense of self comes from both.

Masculine does not equal male- that's been my rallying cry at online butch femme sites for over a decade. I will not be defined by heteronormative or male standards (although I do support my trans and butch brothers who do identify as male).

Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me.

[Daywalker]

...sometimes I feel like, when having a lively debate based on the Gender
comparisons with Butch/Femme vs Masculinity/Femininity ~ that there is
such a negative attachment to being compared to Heterosexual
characteristics ~ I dunno, maybe it sounds silly...but it makes
me feel like I am 'dissin' my own Parents.

That probably sounds funny.

And it probably did not come out the way
it formed in mah head just now.

But I found myself compelled to share it.

[FTM4femme]

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by FTM4femme

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

[CherryWine]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by FTM4femme

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

I'm wondering if what you are referring to as masculine competition is what I refer to as to as identity posturing.

To me, identity posturing is just a process of people getting comfortable in their own skin. They may have declared themselves to be butch, but now they have to figure out what that means, how that looks, how that behaves etc.

It's an internal process, I think, but it is heavily influenced by external things. The more butches someone is exposed to, the more variations they see. More variations mean more things to try on, see if it fits kind of thing.

Eventually, people find what fits them, they settle into a peace with themselves and others.

Thats what I have noticed with butches. I dont know if FTM go thru the same kind of thing.

[Tuff Stuff]

I don't think i'm mimicking a man in any way or form.Personally I don't compete for a person's affection.A mature person already knows what they like and don't like in a partner..either they want a butch woman or not..maybe they like a butch FTM..or butch cis-male ect.I know I love femininity,been attracted to it since I was a little girl.I can spot it a mile away and when it comes my way,i wanna jump it's bones.Personally speaking for myself I don't display much femininity if any at all.The cis-men I usually go for have that tenderness that I associate with being feminine.I don't have insecurities about my masculinity,i was born this way and I could not hide it even if I tried..btw,i've never tried.I love a femmes energy and I love a feminine persons energy,period.I had jealous boyfriends want to kick my ass before and what not..all I had to do was walk in a room and their girlfriend stared a minute too long and bam!,her man hates my guts.Even today, I still have to deter a jealous nature by keeping eye contact with the masculine male species of the two.*snort*

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me.

YES!!! I believe that a woman can be as as masculine as they choose with NO boundaries on what that means to them, and not have their gender ID called in to question!

Nice to 'see' you again by the way

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

YES!!! I believe that a woman can be as as masculine as they choose with NO boundaries on what that means to them, and not have their gender ID called in to question!

Nice to 'see' you again by the way

Thanks Mike, absolutely! It's great to see you again too.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Day, I don't mind dissing the way my parents were brought up, it's oppressive, depressing and so damn heteronormative that it took years for them to even get the gay wasn't going away. Me dissing how they think things should be when it comes to gender doesn't take away my love for them or how I feel about them. I have come to a place in my life I don't placate to their bullshit, I am outspoken even with them it's very few the special pass they get.

[*Anya*]

I may not be able to define the masculine butch woman but I sure know her when I see and *feel* her-when I get that electric charge!

Conversely, the same with my femme sisters- minus the electric charge, of course

[PumaJ]

Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:

You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa

You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes

You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such.

You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such.

You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU.

If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG.

I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

Hear, hear, SelfMadeMan

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I may not be able to define the masculine butch woman but I sure know her when I see and *feel* her-when I get that electric charge!

Conversely, the same with my femme sisters- minus the electric charge, of course

I can totally relate to this, Anya.....

recently a special someone (butch) told me that I was electrifying to them....which they have the same effect on me.

That... electrifying exchange of power between an butch and a femme.... it's very real.

[cathexis]

That electrifying energy is what I refer to as Alpha energy. It is a self confidence that can momentarily cause people in a room to look towards the door they're walking in.

Sometimes, their aura seems as big as an elephant. It spreads out, filling space. Is this the energy you're writing of?

My Partner is a Butch with this type of aura.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

I can totally relate to this, Anya.....

recently a special someone (butch) told me that I was electrifying to them....which they have the same effect on me.

That... electrifying exchange of power between an butch and a femme.... it's very real.

Yep, no two ways about it. That butch-femme energy is amazing and very VERY distinct.

I am loving all these bumped gender threads!