Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If they find their partner "hard to love" because of their transition...maybe a break up is better for both, because I know I wouldn't want to be "harder to love" just because of who I am.

It probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement feels like it minimizes the process someone would need to go through when faced with the woman you love becoming the man you love. Maybe it's the use of quotes. Or maybe it is simply the tone I am reading into it because of the quotes.

I don't think someone becomes more difficult to love because of who they are but they may not be someone who you can be in love with if they are a man and you are not attracted to men or they are a woman and you are not attracted to woman. Makes sense to me. It's not about the person being harder to love because of who they are.

And this is where I get back to the questions I was trying to ask before:

At what point does being angry or hurt stop justifying the use of transphobic language. Does it ever? Or is transphobic language always something that trans people should just have to put up with if the person using it is "hurting" or dealing with a partner's transition.

No-one needs to put up with phobic language surrounding their identity. However, sometimes pain and anger make us see things in a very myopic way. It does not justify it, but it might, in this case, allow that perhaps the person who used the language is not necessarily transphobic just insensitive. Or not. And trans people or any people for that matter don't have to put up phobic language surrounding their identity because the person using it is hurting or dealing with a partner's transition or whatever. Maybe her husband will because he understands her pain and wants to make allowances or maybe he won't but surely no-one else needs to even consider putting up with it or making allowances at all if they don't want to. And how will she know she is acting in way that is transphobic if no-one tells her. If people explain that what she is saying is hurtful and transphobic and she refuses to accept this and find another way to say the same thing then she IS simply transphobic.

However, it sounds like there is more than her language that is upsetting. It sounds like the idea that someone would be harder to love because of who they are is also a hurtful idea. But I don't think it is about who someone is at all. It might feel that way. But it is not about being harder to love it is simply that people cannot choose what they are sexually attracted to and who they fall in love with. If it is possible for a person to continue to be in love with and sexually attracted to their spouse after transition then i"m sure they will be thrilled. But I don't think it is a choice. And I'm fairly positive that it won't be any harder one way or the other to love the person. They just may not be able to be IN love any longer.

[Cin]

I just wanted to add that I feel the title the woman chose for her blog post is unfortunate. I have been thinking how I would react if my wife decided that she felt she was really a man and needed to transition. I can’t imagine that after loving her for almost nine years that I would find it hard to love him. I may no longer feel the same attraction for him, I may no longer be in love with him, but it would never be that it was hard or easy to love him, it would just simply be, that I do love him. But most likely for me the love would change because I am attracted to women.

I'm sure that's what she meant and finding her way to the IN love again part is what she was referring to. It just made me feel a certain way to read the title of the thread and it took awhile to figure out what was going on for me.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I just wanted to add that I feel the title the woman chose for her blog post is unfortunate.

I agree...
I have found loving a transman to be the easiest, sweetest, most rewarding love of my life.

[lettertodaddy]

We don't know that the author chose it as the title - it could've been the site editors.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

We don't know that the author chose it as the title - it could've been the site editors.

Ah. Okay. That makes more sense. Cause really it is an odd title choice. And doesn't really reflect what she is saying very well.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

It probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement feels like it minimizes the process someone would need to go through when faced with the woman you love becoming the man you love. Maybe it's the use of quotes. Or maybe it is simply the tone I am reading into it because of the quotes.

I don't think someone becomes more difficult to love because of who they are but they may not be someone who you can be in love with if they are a man and you are not attracted to men or they are a woman and you are not attracted to woman. Makes sense to me. It's not about the person being harder to love because of who they are.

I used quotations because of the title of the article in question, which is Loving a Trans Man Isn't Easy. Funny enough, I feel like that statement minimizes what trans people go through before finally making the decision to transition. The decision to transition is who they are. The reason transitions are so painful to family and friends to begin with is because of the nature of society, not because of the nature of the trans person.

If they are no longer sexually attracted to their partner, then the decision should be fairly simple: to end the relationship.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

No-one needs to put up with phobic language surrounding their identity. However, sometimes pain and anger make us see things in a very myopic way. It does not justify it, but it might, in this case, allow that perhaps the person who used the language is not necessarily transphobic just insensitive. Or not. And trans people or any people for that matter don't have to put up phobic language surrounding their identity because the person using it is hurting or dealing with a partner's transition or whatever. Maybe her husband will because he understands her pain and wants to make allowances or maybe he won't but surely no-one else needs to even consider putting up with it or making allowances at all if they don't want to. And how will she know she is acting in way that is transphobic if no-one tells her. If people explain that what she is saying is hurtful and transphobic and she refuses to accept this and find another way to say the same thing then she IS simply transphobic.

The reason I started commenting on this thread is not because of what her husband may or may not be feeling. It's been stated before that he commented that he doesn't take offense to the use of the word tranny because it's a part of his identity. My issue is with the way she talks about a group of "rah rah tranny people", not her husband. We have to remember that this is not a blog. This isn't a forum post. This is an article in a popular Canadian lesbian and gay newspaper. Something tells me that she isn't completely oblivious to how her words can hurt others. The comments by other Vancouverites has told her that those words were offensive to others, if she hadn't figured it out by the time she wrote the article. In fact, the reason the two statements were made seem directly in response to the kind of people who would call out those kind of statements as transphobic. She seems to see making those statements as a part of her grief. Others see it as transphobic because she is not directly talking about her own coping process, but her anger against others who would even use the word transphobia against her.

If they incorrectly called her transphobic because of the fact that she had to cope with her husband's transition and not immediately feel alright with it, then she should have just said she doesn't like being called transphobic because of her uncertainty or feelings of grief over the transition. She doesn't need to reply to them with statements that are transphobic.

My reasons for participating in this thread are not about her grieving process or to criticize it. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether or not she finds her husband attractive or not. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether she ever considered or ever will leave her husband because he is a transman. That, I don't see as transphobic. It's the two statements she made, that I've been pointing out, which carry with them a lot of transphobia.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

However, it sounds like there is more than her language that is upsetting. It sounds like the idea that someone would be harder to love because of who they are is also a hurtful idea. But I don't think it is about who someone is at all. It might feel that way. But it is not about being harder to love it is simply that people cannot choose what they are sexually attracted to and who they fall in love with. If it is possible for a person to continue to be in love with and sexually attracted to their spouse after transition then i"m sure they will be thrilled. But I don't think it is a choice. And I'm fairly positive that it won't be any harder one way or the other to love the person. They just may not be able to be IN love any longer.

If the person you love is no longer "easy" to love, or is "harder" to love because of their transition (aka: who they are), which is what the title states, then I don't see the point of the relationship anymore. That's just me. It's not about it being "hurtful," as you say, but I just don't see the point of maintaining that kind of relationship. Some people work it out, that's good for them. Others don't and they split. Good on them, too. Leaving a relationship because your partner is trans isn't transphobic. At least they're being honest and admitting that they don't want that kind of relationship. I'd prefer that to being told I'm not "easy" to love. But to each their own on that point.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I don't have any problem with the title. She was writing about her own experience. For her, it is hard. She's allowed to feel that and she's allowed to say it. Other people in a similar situation are allowed to see that it's not just them, and there's not something wrong with them because they feel the same way. Even if everyone else around them is treating them like they're a terrible person for having trouble, for not instantly knowing the "right" words to use, or for failing to be 100% joyfully supportive. I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

[CockyDude]

I have been following this thread and have to admit it's been very informative and has been for the most part a great dialogue. I don't particularly care for labels but I understand the need for them at times. I listed myself as FTM (shorter than transsexual) but I am a man. Always have been except when I was a boy. Like somebody referred to a friend of theirs in a previous post, I have had NO contact with other transsexuals & very little contact with the LGBT community. I totally understand someone using terminology that could/would be offensive to others. For myself all I know is I was definately born in the wrong vessel. Just as people don't choose to be gay, I wouldn't wish this physical hell on anybody. Having said all that, IN MY OPINION this thread seemed to veer off course, to me. It seems to be centered around semantics and terminology. The title is loving a trans man can't be easy. And I'm sure it isn't any easier than being one. This thread did make me think about a lot of issues. My women have all been straight. The reveal was always harder for me than them. Course, I always waited until we were already emotionally vested and I felt she was past the point of no return (yes, I really am that cocky). However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity? In the end, the women that have loved me and that I loved me did have a difficult time. Was it because I am a trans man? Kinda. I'm also an ass, a jerk and often caustic and insensitive. Because I'm a trans man. Because I have my own demons.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by CockyDude

My women have all been straight. However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity?

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

YES. "a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner"

This is hard to tolerate.

[julieisafemme]

I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me.

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[CockyDude]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.
*which seems fairly obvious now

I think some of the issues you have ran into are very common for straight women involved with trans men who are stealth (or even possibly not stealth). They are with a straight man and if you are a lesbian, they can't make a connection with you being with a man. For me personally, I could not be involved with a woman who clearly is lesbian. How would that work? For me, it couldn't. She loves women, and so do I but I am not one. I also am not active in the community and that would take a large part of who she is away from her. Just a quick thought and my .02.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femmes are just as guilty of stepping into butch trans zones alllllll the time I'm not sure why at this point anyone is being asked to take a backseat because of people aren't agreeing. Would we say that to ftm/butches/nonfemnes if they chose to participate? Femmes aren't the only ones who love transmen..

No one is dismissing the article her use of verbiage deems her less credible "to me", taking a back seat to hurtful verbiage shouldn't be expected regardless of what zone we're in...

I wouldn't like it if someone threw racist verbiage to describe their relationship I would hope that just because it's an article or in some zone that it wouldn't get looked over...

[Sparx1_1]

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

[julieisafemme]

I am reponsible for finding my own support or creating it where it does not exist. A lot of the challenge for partners in my experience does stem from transphobia. I don't like the idea that I am somehow silenced or not supported. I don't feel that way. Is it readily available? No. Are these conversations happening? Yes! I am concerned about the tone of this thread being about partners not being heard. There are a lot of factors that go in to that. No relationship is easy. I am not easy to love by any means.

There are specific issues that partners of transpeople have to deal with. The writer of that article spoke up about these. I understand her words might have upset some people. I needed to hear what she said and I hope other partners can feel empowered to talk about it too. I am not a victim of my partners transition or gender identity.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am reponsible for finding my own support or creating it where it does not exist. A lot of the challenge for partners in my experience does stem from transphobia. I don't like the idea that I am somehow silenced or not supported. I don't feel that way. Is it readily available? No. Are these conversations happening? Yes! I am concerned about the tone of this thread being about partners not being heard. There are a lot of factors that go in to that. No relationship is easy. I am not easy to love by any means.

There are specific issues that partners of transpeople have to deal with. The writer of that article spoke up about these. I understand her words might have upset some people. I needed to hear what she said and I hope other partners can feel empowered to talk about it too. I am not a victim of my partners transition or gender identity.

That's great that your experience has been good. It's great that you don't feel silenced or supported. That's you. A lot of people don't have good experiences and do feel silenced and not supported. Those people aren't wrong or to blame for having a different experience from yours, and they're transphobic because their experience is different.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

That's great that your experience has been good. It's great that you don't feel silenced or supported. That's you. A lot of people don't have good experiences and do feel silenced and not supported. Those people aren't wrong or to blame for having a different experience from yours, and they're transphobic because their experience is different.

I don't think I said that my experience was good. I am not saying that anyone is wrong or to blame for having a different experience. I don't feel
silenced because I speak out. I feel supported because I have worked hard to find the support I need. You're right, that's me. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I would not want someone who is just starting with a transgender partner to feel like it is all silence, no support or pain. There was not a lot of support for same sex partners in the past. We have to build those networks and support one another.

So much of the alienation and lack of support I have experienced was from the queer community. That was a bitter pill for me to swallow. I was newly out when I met my partner and all the issues we have been discussing like feeling closeted really took a toll on me in the beginning. I felt like I was not accepted as a lesbian. That hurt so much. It was not what I expected coming out but I met my partner and he is a Transman.

Bit by bit it has gotten better as I have tried to make myself more vulnerable and ask for what I need in my community. Sometimes I still feel alone and like a lesser being in the queer world. I try to be present and sit with that discomfort. Just as you said that people don't want to be judged or blamed, I don't want to either. I'm sorry if you or others interpreted me that way. I am trying to share my experiences.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Sparx1_1

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

That's what I read into it. This woman talked at length about being closeted and finally feeling free, yet suddenly she's back where she started and it hurt.

That resonated with me as I had often wondered how things would have turned out had I stayed with my first trans partner (many years ago). He was still in that transient place, between woman and man, and I was an out and proud lesbian, still fighting my corner to be recognised as a feminine lesbian. I really struggled with the realisation ..and guilt.. that a life with him, meant a life of invisibility. Luckily (possibly more for him!) other things intervened and we went our separate ways.

My current partner had long been part of my life before we got together. Perhaps that emotional connection softened the blow, or perhaps my identity doesn't really mean that much to me any more. Unlike the author of that article I have been out for many, many years and many girlfriends have come and gone. I read that article and feel proud for her that ultimately, she loved her partner more than she grieved her own losses.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Quintease

That's what I read into it. This woman talked at length about being closeted and finally feeling free, yet suddenly she's back where she started and it hurt.

That resonated with me as I had often wondered how things would have turned out had I stayed with my first trans partner (many years ago). He was still in that transient place, between woman and man, and I was an out and proud lesbian, still fighting my corner to be recognised as a feminine lesbian. I really struggled with the realisation ..and guilt.. that a life with him, meant a life of invisibility. Luckily (possibly more for him!) other things intervened and we went our separate ways.

My current partner had long been part of my life before we got together. Perhaps that emotional connection softened the blow, or perhaps my identity doesn't really mean that much to me any more. Unlike the author of that article I have been out for many, many years and many girlfriends have come and gone. I read that article and feel proud for her that ultimately, she loved her partner more than she grieved her own losses.

It seems that you are suggesting in the words I bolded that those who have issues with their partner's transition are selfish in that their needs are taking precedence and that that they just don't love their partner enough if they can't forge a future with them b/c of of it.


If I am reading this correctly, I think that is an unfair implication to those partners who struggle in so many ways--one of the major struggles and mind fucks is that YOU DO still love them but must balance that love with one's own needs and not negate one's own struggles and desires.