"I see you as a man"

[ScandalAndy]

uh oh, now I feel bad. I've used the statement "I see you as a man" before to partners who were feeling really insecure because people in their lives had insulted them and called them a woman, or a dyke. They identify as male, and that's exactly who they are to me. I certainly didn't intend to offend with that, though. Is there a better way to say "no, in my head I"m not thinking you're just a woman in man's clothing" or "no, i don't think you're a dude dressing up like a girl". Those terribly offensive statements crush people I care about, and I want to find a way to tell them that their identity is valid to me and I respect them.

[Nadeest]

Andy, we live and learn. Next time, just tell them that those people are being idiots, and that they ARE male, and have always been so.
I, as a transwoman, haven't always handled new situations, and situations like that, the best way that they could have been handled. I just try to learn from my mistakes and go on.

[DomnNC]

Like Ender said it just depends on the person. Personally, I don't find it offensive or belittling, I simply see it as someone saying, "I see YOU", the real you, regardless of how you're packaged, I see YOU.

[Words]

I'm always having to correct people because when they realize that Blue was born a woman, they assume Hy now thinks of Hymself as a man and say stupid/annoying stuff accordingly.

Third gendered is definitely something that doesn't fit in their nice little binary world and I really feel very strongly about the need for greater public awareness. (When Blue went for Hys first job here in the UK, there were three boxes on the application form when it came to sex - male, female, other. A good start, but by no means enough.)

Words

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Edit: Also wanted to express my initial "omg, it's Calpernia Addams!" reaction. I had no clue she had a youtube channel. I'm totally subscribing to her now. I hearts me some Calpernia

I have always wanted her and Drew Barrymore to take turns reading to me. They've both got that style of voice that I can listen to all day.

[Nat]

I think there is an appropriate time to say this: When a person asks how you see them.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Nadeest

Andy, we live and learn. Next time, just tell them that those people are being idiots, and that they ARE male, and have always been so.
I, as a transwoman, haven't always handled new situations, and situations like that, the best way that they could have been handled. I just try to learn from my mistakes and go on.

I guess I'm just curious because in my case I used the phrase in the specific context of a conversation with a partner or very close friend who was feeling vulnerable about themselves. I guess it would have been better to have said "well, they're clearly blind because you are obviously a man, there's just something wrong with them". I get that now, I was just curious if she was talking about it in the context of some random person she met in her capacity as a public figure, or if it's always offensive, regardless of intent.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

uh oh, now I feel bad. I've used the statement "I see you as a man" before to partners who were feeling really insecure because people in their lives had insulted them and called them a woman, or a dyke. They identify as male, and that's exactly who they are to me. I certainly didn't intend to offend with that, though. Is there a better way to say "no, in my head I"m not thinking you're just a woman in man's clothing" or "no, i don't think you're a dude dressing up like a girl". Those terribly offensive statements crush people I care about, and I want to find a way to tell them that their identity is valid to me and I respect them.

Don't apologize for use of that statement. Ten people in one online thread don't speak for an entire community of people. One person's insult is another's affirmation. A friend of mine was transitioning several years ago and asked me "How do you see me?" I said "I've always seen you as a guy." He hugged me. It wasn't offensive to him, it was exactly what he was hoping for.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

Don't apologize for use of that statement. Ten people in one online thread don't speak for an entire community of people. One person's insult is another's affirmation. A friend of mine was transitioning several years ago and asked me "How do you see me?" I said "I've always seen you as a guy." He hugged me. It wasn't offensive to him, it was exactly what he was hoping for.

The difference here is that he asked you. You didn't just assume that that is what he wanted to hear without him giving you reason to.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I guess I'm just curious because in my case I used the phrase in the specific context of a conversation with a partner or very close friend who was feeling vulnerable about themselves. I guess it would have been better to have said "well, they're clearly blind because you are obviously a man, there's just something wrong with them". I get that now, I was just curious if she was talking about it in the context of some random person she met in her capacity as a public figure, or if it's always offensive, regardless of intent.

And sometimes it is not so "clear" and people are genuinely responding to what they see........their perception.......or what they KNOW. When we first moved here, I was just starting my transition. The people we interacted with most knew what was going on; they tried and "failed" a lot. But I do know they were trying. I could not fault people for seeing what they saw. I could not say, "It's obvious I am a man," because it was not obvious to them at all. I knew that.

And I'm not talking about assholes who are out to make us miserable or are looking to tear down or discriminate against. I'm talking about people who are trying.......people who want to get it right and/or affirm us.

I did not watch the video recently (it was probably a year or so ago), so I'm not responding to what was said there because I don't remember her specific context.......just taking it beyond that to what others here have experienced and what my own experiences were.

The whole "trans thing" is not a common daily thought for the vast majority of people out there. In fact, I would bet that most people don't think about it AT ALL unless they're confronted with a story......Chaz in the headlines, etc.... So when they were confronted with me a few years back, the people I bothered to interact with were really trying. Honestly, there wasn't anything they could have said that would have been offensive.....to ME.

They said things that were narrow........or uninformed........maybe even insensitive.......but I knew for sure they did not *mean* to be that way. And I'm not one of those who says, "It's not my job to educate you." With something like this, if I don't do what I can then they'll most likely not do it themselves and will continue on being uninformed.

I do get that when you dig down really deep into a statement that, yes, it can reek of ignorance or transphobia; but I honestly don't believe that the people who are really trying are at that level. I just can't allow myself to assume that about most people.

Pollyanna, rainbows, and unicorns???? Probably.

[EmpressM]

I really appreciate everyone's perspective on this topic. Being a Psychiatry student, a very similar discussion occurred in one of my classes recently. Personally, I had an incredibly difficult time accepting the professor's textbook response to the questions and perspectives of myself and my classmates. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to explore first person experiences and hear from the community. Only so much can be learned from theory and books alone. Even professors with good intentions can be short sighted and at times, dead wrong.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by EmpressM

I really appreciate everyone's perspective on this topic. Being a Psychiatry student, a very similar discussion occurred in one of my classes recently. Personally, I had an incredibly difficult time accepting the professor's textbook response to the questions and perspectives of myself and my classmates. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to explore first person experiences and hear from the community. Only so much can be learned from theory and books alone. Even professors with good intentions can be short sighted and at times, dead wrong.

Oddly enough had a similar experience with a professor in one of my classes recently. For me personally I find it difficult to sit in a classroom setting and hear someone talk about a community I'm a part of as if they have more authority on it than the community members themselves. That's been my experience anyways. Irritates the hell out of me.

[Nadeest]

I can definitely agree with that, Thinker. When I first started transition, I was living in a rural area in the northern part of Michigan. Few people had ever dealt with this subject before, yet I had very few problems with anyone.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The difference here is that he asked you. You didn't just assume that that is what he wanted to hear without him giving you reason to.

I think it's splitting hairs...

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I think it's splitting hairs...

Not if one is on the receiving end... I don't think it can be assumed that all transmales are going to be ok with it when they've given no indication...

[Corkey]

When I hear "I see you as a... it doesn't matter what the end word is. If they don't see me as a human being the rest they will never see.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Not if one is on the receiving end... I don't think it can be assumed that all transmales are going to be ok with it when they've given no indication...

I don't think one should *ever* assume that an entire group will or will not be okay with something, which was sort of the point of my original post -- that while some might be offended by the "I see you as a man" statement, others won't be, regardless if they asked for the feedback or not.

But as to the "it's okay if they ask"... well... it's sort of like saying "I'm upset that you think my ass looks big in this dress. If I had *asked* you first if you thought my ass looked big, then it would have been okay."

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

uh oh, now I feel bad. I've used the statement "I see you as a man" before to partners who were feeling really insecure because people in their lives had insulted them and called them a woman, or a dyke. They identify as male, and that's exactly who they are to me. I certainly didn't intend to offend with that, though. Is there a better way to say "no, in my head I"m not thinking you're just a woman in man's clothing" or "no, i don't think you're a dude dressing up like a girl". Those terribly offensive statements crush people I care about, and I want to find a way to tell them that their identity is valid to me and I respect them.

No! You have NO reason to feel bad You have a wonderful, supportive attitude - I should have clarified that in my original post - I don't mind it when it's coming from a place of support.. it annoys me with hetero people who don't go out of their way to be supportive but will say "ok, I see you as a man" as an empathetic pat on the back. You're doing nothing wrong