When Will There Be Guaranteed Freedom From Persecution To Be Religious

[ruffryder]

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

[Cin]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Well, I don't think it is conflating religion with morality. It is the ten commandments. It is religion. And a fine moral code as well.

The problem comes when people believe being religious is necessary in order to live by moral codes.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Kind of funny to bring this one up in a thread that is about the pressure atheists feel to be religious. Also taking into account christian privilege in many Western nations.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Again, smacking of religious intolerance, as well as intolerance for those who are not religious or spiritual in any way.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

See above.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

See above. In many places in the Western world, many stores still close on Sundays in supposedly secular nations.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Honor thy father and thy mother.

I will honour whoever I choose to honour. This kind of mentality contributes to what many abusers say to those they victimize. Particularly the children of abusive parents, who are so often told: "but they're father/mother. They love you no matter what they do." Gee, I wonder where that line of thinking comes from

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not kill.

I generally agree with this in the context of Western nations, except where immediate self-defense is concerned. Outside the context of stable Western nations, sometimes people need to be violent in order to insure the progression of their society or to insure their own survival.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Normative monogamy, much?

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not steal.

Generally agree with this one...or would agree with it if current wealth distribution worldwide didn't leave certain people in extreme poverty. Somehow when a person is starving with little in the way of options and resources, their "moral code" changes...funny that. Or maybe it's society that needs to be reconsidering its "moral code."

Again, we're dealing with a sense of morality that only takes certain socio-economic situations into consideration.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Agreed. However, I don't hold it against people who live in dictatorial situations, who sometimes end up doing these things to survive.

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Might I add: nor his wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ass or anything that is thy neighbour's.

I suppose, then, that my neighbour is a slave-owning straight man who sees people as possessions. Suddenly, I just lost respect for my neighbour

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour are conditional aspects of my own values that would be present in a Utopian society. But you know what they say about Utopias The others have some pretty horrible implications.

I would also like to point out that believing that murder is bad for society does not mean one has religious convictions. Neither does it mean that those values stem from the 10 commandments. These values predate judeo-christianity, and most human societies have placed consequences in place for such things as murder and theft since as far as we have evidence of human laws. These are not in anyway unique to christianity.

For myself, I really don't see these values as strictly moral, but as acts that require legal representation in order for society to progress.

[Cin]

I am not unaware of the dangers inherent in what is considered moral reasoning. So much damage has been done in the name of morality. Almost as much as has been done in the name of god. But can I hold morality or god morally responsible for the immorality often found in moral judgments?

Humanity itself is in dire need of a more socially conscious morality.

When talking to others it is most effective to use language that is meaningful to them. Right now in the U.S., and in Canada as well, that language is morality (I just read an article yesterday about whether Justin Trudeau is Catholic or Catholic enough to speak to students at a Catholic school), albeit the kind of morality heavily weighted with religious overtones.

When I speak of taking back morality from the exclusive use of the religious and incorporating it into the dialogue used by those of us with a social rather than religious conscience and agenda, I don’t mean to imply that a consideration of morality is a new idea for non religious people, nor am I even referring exclusively to non religious people. I just mean I’ve noticed that publicly and politically the moral high ground is often occupied by those of the religious right and those of the GOP while everyone else scrambles around trying to copy the same basic moral language. Which is difficult to do when one comes down on, what is deemed by the Right, as the morally incorrect side of an issue.

Often the answer to this dilemma has been to shy away from conversations or political speeches fraught with moral righteousness. While I tend to agree this would be most welcome, it will not be the tact of the religious right or the conservative party. So I advocate an about face. I am suggesting challenging the validity of their claims of moral superiority. I can think of endless ways that the Right does not act in ways that could ever by any measuring stick be considered moral, many that have been articulated quite clearly in this thread alone.

It would be in everyone’s best interest, religious or not, if our leaders and law makers who are possessed of a social conscience over a religious one would stop aping the tired morality spewed by the Right and begin, not only to clearly illuminate the moral weaknesses of the Right and show that the emperor is indeed without clothes, but to lead us toward a more just and equitable society.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I am not unaware of the dangers inherent in what is considered moral reasoning. So much damage has been done in the name of morality. Almost as much as has been done in the name of god. But can I hold morality or god morally responsible for the immorality often found in moral judgments?

Humanity itself is in dire need of a more socially conscious morality.

When talking to others it is most effective to use language that is meaningful to them. Right now in the U.S., and in Canada as well, that language is morality (I just read an article yesterday about whether Justin Trudeau is Catholic or Catholic enough to speak to students at a Catholic school), albeit the kind of morality heavily weighted with religious overtones.

No doubt someone speaking about religion will get debated for and against about whether they "qualify" to speak on the subject, especially to children.

If you don't mind Miss, who is Justin Trudeau? Why is he getting heat about speaking to students at a Catholic school?

This reminded me of the members at the Vatican or even churches across the world being so religious and so moral, but yet they are found guilty of child sexual abuse.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

If you don't mind Miss, who is Justin Trudeau? Why is he getting heat about speaking to students at a Catholic school?

He is the son of Pierre Trudeau and an MP in Papineau. He's also an excellent writer, as is his brother, Sasha Trudeau.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...4/?from=sec431

[ruffryder]

Thanks Ender

In that article I find this,

“First of all, my question, is: who is the faith police? Who are the people who are supposed to be judging somebody's faith?” said Trevor Digby, department chair of Canadian and world studies at Holy Cross Secondary School. “Is that not a private matter? When we invite speakers, we don't go out and do a police record check on their faith, unless they've done something outrageous.”


“We haven't called them to speak about a theological issue, we've called them to speak on inspiring young people to international service and their place in leadership now in society and make a better world,” Mr. Digby said. “That our minister of Parliament would have a problem with that I think speaks more about him than about Justin Trudeau.”

I say good grief. Let The guy speak. He is an inspiration for even wanting to go speak to kids in my book.

[Glenn]

Pardon me Miss Tick; Are you asking for signs and wonders? Even Jesus Christ could'nt teach us successfully, while on Earth, what you ask of mankind's mere logic and reasoning abililties regarding the true nature of God.