only another butch would understand

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (male and female ID) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

Great post Metro, and this is really where I am with the whole issue, as well. The stereotypes are out there, I think they're fairly well documented and don't need reiteration here. I admire how you respectfully addressed that - because being dismissive isn't a one way street and is a poor way to start off a thread that's supposed to be for us.

I am in complete agreement with, "Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention."

In my opinion, one (and only one) of the essential elements of butch is masculinity - female masculinity, masculine women, male identified trans-masculine - however we choose to further define it. Masculinity does not belong solely to cis-gendered men, transmen, stone butches - it belongs to all of us. THAT, in my mind, is our bonding element.

When I saw the title of this thread, I didn't think about passing gas, tools, football or any of those things - because none of these is unique to the butch experience. Plenty of femmes or other - ID'ed folks are adept with their hands, love beer and can change their oil (though I admit I wish I could rebuild an engine). What I hope to see here are those stories of the common formative experiences and the day to day trials.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Metropolis,

I'm sorry..

Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*

Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..

[Dean Thoreau]

jess, can I give your phone number to the 6 diva's? you can be there super hero...at the fixing plunging stuff you look better in the blue tights!.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kam

Jet - I think part of what it is ... is human psychology. During our courtship our women learn what it is that drives us, inspires us, what are pleasures are, our intimate thoughts, our favorite movies, music, food to eat... and so forth. When it come to the nastiness of a bad argument or break-up, some of them start pushing buttons, they find the thing that insults, shocks, tears us down, etc. the most - and go for the jugular vein...

Stating the obvious...

It strikes me that people who pull this trick (finding weak spots and exploiting them in a fight) are not limited to any gender, sexuality, or identity.

They're simply assholes.

To say "our women" do this or that is gets my hackles up. It implies femmes and this type of asshole behavior go hand-in-hand. They don't.

[Milly]

Jet, only a femme that is in need of making her own self appear more important to herself, would say such things to a butch. Any woman, worth her salt, would never say such cruelties to someone she supposedly loves. For me to say these things to my spouse, would mean that I am less of a human for being with someone I apparently think so little of. I'm sorry for any hurtful words that a femme has said to you. I can imagine how very hurtful this would be for you or any other buth.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Milly

Jet, only a femme that is in need of making her own self appear more important to herself, would say such things to a butch. Any woman, worth her salt, would never say such cruelties to someone she supposedly loves. For me to say these things to my spouse, would mean that I am less of a human for being with someone I apparently think so little of. I'm sorry for any hurtful words that a femme has said to you. I can imagine how very hurtful this would be for you or any other buth.

Milly, thank you for posting this. I was surprised when I saw this; I haven't been in this thread for some time. Christmas is nearing—for me— alone. You know, it wasn't the words...it was the betrayal. All I ever wanted was to love and be loved. It just....you know...wasn't meant to be. Thank you again, I wish you a great holiday.

[nytangel]

Originally Posted by Jet

The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*

I've been through hell and back w/ my girl. When things were pretty bad I told her she was just trying to bust my balls. To which she replied I wasn't a genetic male and didn't have any. Took a bit to get past all that. We didn't talk for about a month.

Metro is so right that when peeps get pissed they will say really nasty things. She understand now my duality both male and female in one body.

I'm truly glad that we could work past all that and I'm even more proud to say that not only are we back together we're under 1 roof and more committed than ever to each other.

[RockyMountainButch]

Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainButch

Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out.

hey welcome good to to see you again

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

I felt different at the age of four. It was when I fell to my knees over a girl at 16 that I knew I was butch. I told my best friends.

Originally Posted by RockyMountainButch

Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out.

Hey did you get my post at the other site about Colorado? My kin are in Boulder, Ft. Collins, Greeley, Sterling, Telluride, and Denver, Windsor..we have a lot in common as Colorado is my home state. Keep in touch dude.

[BullDog]

I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:


Tough Guise

I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:


Tough Guise

I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.

Bull Dog, LTNS. I was just going to sign off and the last line about "unexamined masculinity" caught my eye. If I understand you correctly, I agree. When I have more time, I will come back and view the video. I know you already know but for anyone reading this I identify as a Transmasculine Butch.

Good to see you again. Bye for now.

[BullDog]

Thanks Greyson, it's good to see you and I look forward to your thoughts. I haven't gotten much of any response at all so far, and I have posted this here as well as 2 very large butch groups on Facebook. Thank you very much.