What every Femme should know...

[NorCalStud]

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

[BullDog]

An individual copies and pastes something they find on the internet.

Then other individuals- mostly femmes- add their own personal and very detailed responses to a thread entitled "What Every Femme Should Know" and they are the ones being criticized? Wow.

I don't see the conversation being critical of the OP since he didn't write it.

If someone wants to send a special message to an individual femme they like maybe a different title would convey that better. If the message appealed to the one femme then mission accomplished and why so defensive?

I personally am finding a lot of value in this conversation.

[LaneyDoll]

The OP reminded me of a poem someone once shared with me. Soooooo, I think I am going to go share it now...

[NorCalStud]

You know the segment on snl where they examine an issue and say "cmon really" at some point. I gotta say it. Cmon really.

I agree because Im a feminist. We are educating about the use of the word Every. Wrong choice of word

Im discussing how the education was delivered. It wasnt as loving as it could have been. Cmon really...the whole story has to include the part in the education where the op was made fun of

[Tawse]

To me - I read it like I read Twilight (yes I did read all four books and I still think book four was written by some rabid fans).

It was on one hand fun to read and on the other hand - deeply disturbing.

It's not realistic.

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

But that being said..

I read all four of the twilight books


but that being said...

I make fun of them all the time.


See I'm conflicted. lol

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Tawse

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

I have had this happen with two different people.

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep. Kind of sweet.

The other, I was dating. And she told me that she stayed up and watched me sleep. Kind of creepy. THEN, she decided to do something "romantic" and called me when she knew I would not answer so that she could sing "You Are My Sunshine" to my voice mail. When I got the message a few days later (I never check voice mail) it felt bizarre and stalkerish but mostly because she sang in a whispery, breathy, "Happy Birthday Mr. President sans Marilyn Monroe sexiness" kind of voice. Sing it to yourself-see how it sounds; I will wait while you shudder.

I think that with ALL gestures, there is always a way to add in the weird, psychopathic overtones.

[Tawse]

Originally Posted by LaneyDoll

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep.

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Tawse

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

You are sooooo wrong.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Tawse

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

If he had told me he was coming, I would have stayed up!!!

lol

[Dude]

I dont see the laughing at or any yelling.
what >every< femme should know is a big statement

the poster is responsible for what they put out there
is this really gonna be called bullying stuff in here ?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by NorCalStud

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

[Corkey]

I think the usage of words is important, if the title had been something along the lines of what every femme should know ( about me ) then perhaps it may have made it more palatable.
Blanket statements tend to get discussed, as they should. Making "I" statements not so much.
I do not believe anyone attacked the op, and speaking for me, this is me being "nice".
I think integrity and honesty are important, and explaining why blanket statements are not such a good thing in any community.
Sentiments are great, but stereotypical misogynistic statements are going to get discussed. Yey for diversity!

[NorCalStud]

Im almost sixty. It was not until I was almost 30 that I heard the whole story about north america.

What is a real story? The real story has all the parts...not some of the parts.

Part of the story of our reactions to this piece of our bfp herstory is that the op was made fun of. If you didnt do it then okay but it was done.

I am learning that info is all so Im trying to remember to ask questions first so that is one way I may have dealt with it. Curiosity is friendly. Everybody fucks words up. What I really want to know about someone is what their tone is and what they are reverant about. My part in this story has one purpose....to help some see...

[BullDog]

Kobi, why don't you practice what you preach.

Now, I am off with my sweetie to a basketball game. Go Lady Vols!

Have a great night everyone.

[weatherboi]

i don't equate passion for hostility. i think it is on the reader not to make up stuff in there heads about a members tone of post. we are all adults here and as long as everybody is following the TOS it should be all good. Honestly all this talk of how the femmes should voice their opinions and the accusations of yelling and laughing sounds like the same old deflective song and dance some butches and transguys do when they have a hard time accepting they have crossed a boundary or insulted some femme or not femme members.

[BullDog]

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.

I really think you are spending a lot of time and energy worrying about whether or not people (yourself included) are going to get their/your feelings hurt.

We have a magnet on our fridge at home that says, "put your big girl panties on and deal with it." 'Nuff said. We are all adults. Some of us more direct than others, some handle tough situations with humor (JAGG) and others are natural peace-keepers. No one is right or wrong. What becomes challenging and frustrating is when people start personalizing everything, don't learn from situations, and continue to scream VICTIM!

I don't think you behaved cowardly, but I do read a lot of passive/agressiveness in your posts, and I personally don't generally have positive reactions to that sort of behavior. But that's just me.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

I have been really working hard to not react and respond. I know in the past, I have jumped in and voiced my very strong opinion. Sometimes it was valid and warranted, other times I know I could have handled the situation better. But emotions do come in. We are all human beings with one common attribute. We are emotional. Be it rational or irrational, emotions are simply that.

Each of us here have our own skills in communicating. Not all people can formulate the structure of educating posters in one form or another. We all have our individual styles. I have been accused on numerous occasions of ganging up - dog piling, etc. I will use my relationship with Snow as an example. Snow and I are friends. We also share a lot of the same political views, as well as how we as Femme's and Women prefer to be addressed and spoken to.

And here comes the BAM!

If Snow is positing in a thread which might be controversial and then I come in and post in that thread, with similar thought processes - We are immediately called out for ganging up on the person. This is really unfair Kobi and unjust. It just so happens that we are friends and share similar thought processes. I stopped posting for awhile, because I got tired of people yelling and screaming gang bang or dog pile. It got really old. I thought about NOT posting in this thread, because Snow posted before me - but I said... Bullshit. These are my thoughts and emotions and I have every right to post in a thread, as does Snow, as do you and as does every other community member here, without people screaming their automatic response of being bullied because they are being called out.

I am glad we had the dialogue we did. It was absolutely constructive and it was good. But I do want to say. Just because we had the dialogue we did and it was positive - does not mean others will have the same type of dialogue. We all communicate differently and that is in part what makes this community so rich and diverse.

Julie