Opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't blend in with society's version of normality I'm also one of those people who feel I should not have to argue, prove, or debate my civil rights. I'm glad Obama took a stance but I'm also aware that what will trickle down as far as benefits will be so for those who do want to marry. Marriage shouldn't garuantee my rights that to me falls under that whole binary you gotta be married to be validated. I'm also ELATED that those who can CAN!

I think Obamas gay marriage endorsement is a tool for all of us under the LGBTQI spectrum to get out there and fight, not stay silent, change legislations etc.


"I" would love for this to be a Federal law not just state to state. I'm also very aware unless we (queers,gays,etc) do something it isn't going to happen overnight.


My kids have it a tiny easier because change has happened.

[julieisafemme]

This is frustrating. I support marriage equality 100 percent! I am extremely pleased that President Obama has publicly stated that same sex couples have the right to marry.

Ok. So now let's look at what exactly he said and how that affects the still ongoing fight for marriage equality. DOMA, while not being defended by his Justice Department, is not on his agenda to repeal. He said that on The View yesterday. Without the repeal of DOMA same sex couples will not enjoy the rights of tranferring social security benefits, having access to federal pensions, enjoying federal tax treatments for married couples or surviving spouses, and immigration. These are all things that have been mentioned in this thread that will not be changed by what President Obama said.

We are still in the same space as before. Yes we have recognition and that is very important!!!!

The second issue is the emphasis on gay marriage as THE issue facing queer people. It is one issue. Everyone has their idea as to how marriage equality will affect other issues queer folks face. I have heard compelling arguments on either side. I do not understand why we have to all be if the same opinion.

[girl_dee]

Yes yes yes, marriage is not the only thing on the gay agenda where rights are concerned.

Syr and i will never be legally married, She is my *next of kin* here. i have yet to figure out how much weight that holds here in Canada where i can list Her as my partner, but not my legal partner. Maybe one day poly marriage will be legal! Try finding loopholes in Immigration law without the benefit of marriage, it is NOT easy unless like Miss Tick said, you are wealthy. Wealthy folk can stay as long as they like without a problem.

i feel in ALL walks of life we should be able to choose who in the hell we want to to be with us in the hospital and to be proxy if that is needed. Being gay just makes it that much harder in some places, and that is what sucks.

i incorrectly thought when a couple states (MA for one) adopted gay marriage in 2004, on the state level, and the rest of the USA could see they didn't fall off the map, that the Earth still spins that things would change, here we are still begging for equal rights. NOT special rights, just equal ones. It is really a sad thing.

i keep saying *that's the first step* then the second step doesn't happen. i don't want anyone to have special treatment, i just want equal treatment across the board.

[Toughy]

I'll be 60 the end of June. Trust me on this: Obama is not the enemy. Obama does not deserve being picked apart. I am stunned that in my lifetime a sitting President has vocally supported homosexuals and marriage for homosexuals............stunned. I am stunned Obama got rid of DADT.

Why on this earth are we taking Obama to task for being a vocal supporter of equal rights? It sounds like a bunch of whiney kids who are having a temper tantrum because they only got 1 scoop of ice cream instead of 2 scoops.

The real enemy (in the US) is fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. Here is an interesting blog about how it is chasing many many many folks away from Christianity.

http://rachelheldevans.com/win-cultu...north-carolina

[Cin]

I don’t care to have to argue, prove or debate my civil rights either. Yet, nobody is offering to give them to me. And I sure don’t fit society’s idea of normal. That’s not likely to change any time soon either. And I’m very okay with that. Nor do I believe gay marriage is the only gay issue. As far as human rights issues are concerned it’s not even in the top ten. That said I certainly support gay marriage. And although Obama’s personal declaration concerning queer marriage is not going to translate into legislation at this time, it is acceptance on a personal level and that has value. You cannot legislate acceptance. You cannot legislate public opinion. You cannot pass laws that will erase bigotry. That happens gradually over time and movements in that direction are just as important as legislation in my opinion because once you have acceptance legislation is much easier to come by. Although traditionally it is not done that way. It is usually civil rights that are legislated and then with any luck acceptance follows a few hundred (sometimes a few thousand) miles behind.

I have to say I am having a bit of a difficult time understanding what is going on in this thread. I'm not following it. I'm not even sure where the dissention lies exactly. People seem to mostly agree or maybe it's just that I don't get it. I don't know where the paths diverge, except maybe in regards to the level of importance that should be placed on Obama's declaration. Or maybe on gay marriage? Too much thinking makes my head hurt.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I specifically started the thread because we ALL have different opinions on what's going on politically with "gay marriage" being a focus. We all aren't going to be shaking our head yes yes yes, some will stop think others may not.

The article I posted has some things I agree with others not, it certainly is nor has my opinion been stated by whining, shredding Obama apart or demonizing the marriage thing.

I expected different views and opinions with some being agreeable some not. It's not a pick a camp thread I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.


Opinions are just that, opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

PS

I also agree strongly Toughy, religious hands are way to deep in the government cookie jar but that's a whole other thread and a whole other brain aneurism

[Gráinne]

I personally believe that one day, hopefully soon, gay marriage will be on the national level. It wasn't that long ago, in my lifetime actually, in which whites and minorities (not just African-Americans) could not marry. One by one, the anti-miscegenation laws were struck down until 1967. Then as now, it was the Deep South who were the last to get rid of them. Gay marriage will do the same.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by guihong

I personally believe that one day, hopefully soon, gay marriage will be on the national level. It wasn't that long ago, in my lifetime actually, in which whites and minorities (not just African-Americans) could not marry. One by one, the anti-miscegenation laws were struck down until 1967. Then as now, it was the Deep South who were the last to get rid of them. Gay marriage will do the same.

The Zealots don't share this viewpoint, they see interracial marriage being accepted finally as "natural" between man and woman. The Christian Nation is defending the sanctity of natural marriage what we do according to them is against scripture. Churches are SCREAMING in anger that Obama is betraying Christian law.


A law that has no business in Government buy I'm telling ya that's a whole other thread about us (queers) and Zealotry running this nation.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.

Yes, and as with basic human rights equitably assured for all, it is certainly something we can hopefully achieve.

[Sachita]

I don't need someone's approval or acceptance about who I love or fuck. If it was illegal, lets face it in some places it is, I would have to be more careful. As a human being I want the same rights as everyone else, of course, however having lived in this USA I can't support any government venues. The whole thing with marriage, paperwork, etc is a big turn off to me. I understand equality but if you think about we have never ever been treated equal and as women we may not see that day in our lifetime. I also feel like its a sell out on their part and although I think Obama is a fucking great president I don't trust any of them.

I don't need legal marriage to show my love and devotion.

[Sparkle]

I am finding some of the posts in this thread disturbing and a bit mind boggling because it seems that the message is: if you're not exclusively cheerleading Obama in response to his announcement then you're a naysayer and a nitpicker and a parade-pee'er.

What is wrong with looking critically at the Presidents' actions and words?

I think Obama is a fantastic President. I admire him. On some issues I don't agree with the choices his administration has made. On other issues I am 100% behind him. I consider his bravery and progressiveness in relation to the LGBT rights groundbreaking, but let us be honest, the bar wasn't set very high (in terms of presidential support for equality). I think Obama publicly supporting gay marriage is amazing, unexpected and quite possibly political suicide.

I voted for Obama once and I will vote for him again, he already had my vote prior to his announcement and despite my critical view of his administration.

And I strongly agree with the posts of aishah and julieisafemme (and a few others), I believe we must CONTINUE to take a critical view of all of our political leaders. I believe we must keep our eye on the big picture, which includes a number of different legal rights, not just marriage.

I believe that "gay marriage" is one piece of the pie when it comes to LGBT rights. It is potentially a large piece of the pie IF (and only if) DOMA is repealed and legislation happens on a federal level.

While DOMA exists, marriage equality does not.
As an aside, I far prefer the phrase/term "marriage equality" to "gay marriage" which sounds a whole lot like "special rights" to me.

I live in Massachusetts, I've had the legal right to marry for years. I'm very proud of my state and grateful for the rights it affords me and very-very-very aware of the rights my state has no ability to give me (federal rights). I expatriated for this reason. I continue to funnel my resources in to immigration equality because my lack of rights impacted me so deeply.

Meanwhile...there are so many other pieces of the pie to be advocated for, to be fought for and to be won. And Obama saying he supports gay marriage, while a wonderful endorsement, does not equal legal change on any front.

It really bothers me that taking a critical view, not only of Obama's announcement but also the actual and potential legal and political ramifications of the announcement (or the lack there of) is labeled "picking apart" the President!

I celebrate Obama's announcement, I tip my hat, I salute him, I throw a virtual ticker tape parade for his announcement.

And I want more - I want full legal parity.
I want my basic human and civil rights. Full stop.

And I will not stop taking a critical view.
I hope, when the virtual confetti is swept off the virtual streets, the rest of our community won't either.

[BullDog]

Hmm well I am not some mindless cheerleader.

Those taking a "critical view" - what exactly is it that you want? What should be done differently?

I believe in riding momentum for all of it's worth rather than sitting around and criticizing. I think we have a better chance of positive change with that type of strategy. That's just me.

I think everyone is well aware that same sex marriage is not the only important issue in this world.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Hmm well I am not some mindless cheerleader.

Those taking a "critical view" - what exactly is it that you want? What should be done differently?

I believe in riding momentum for all of it's worth rather than sitting around and criticizing. I think we have a better chance of positive change with that type of strategy. That's just me.

I think everyone is well aware that same sex marriage is not the only important issue in this world.

Perhaps we have different views of the language I used...

I think taking a 'critical view' and 'criticizing' are wildly different, in connotation and denotation.

Taking a critical view is saying: "I'm proud of my president AND I'm really concerned about how marriage equality can be achieved while DOMA continues to exist? how do we move forward from here? what are the next steps? how can we capitalize on this endorsement?"

criticizing is saying: "our president sucks, he should have said this 4 years ago, this is all motivated to win more votes, he's disingenuous, he doesn't care about us and I think his tie was really ugly."

[BullDog]

Yes how can we capitalize on the momentum- I believe that is something many people could agree on. I do think those of us who find the President's announcement to be a positive thing are quite aware there is much more work to be done. I think President Obama is aware of that as well.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes how can we capitalize on the momentum- I believe that is something many people could agree on. I do think those of us who find the President's announcement to be a positive thing are quite aware there is much more work to be done. I think President Obama is aware of that as well.

I agree that the President is aware of that as well.

And the part I bolded, that is what I am responding to - I haven't seen anyone in this thread who has not said they think "Obama's announcement is a positive thing". And that is why it bothers me that people posting views in this thread that go beyond unequivocal cheerleading have been labeled as "picking apart" and diversive.

Pretty much everyone (in this thread and that I personally know) thinks Obama's announcement was a great thing and that it has very positive cultural and political ramifications AND some posters continue to analyze the political climate, the legal status of LGBT rights and continue discussing a strategy for leveraging that endorsement in to legal change. And doing so does not take away from the awesomeness of Obama's public announcement.

[Cin]

Well I certainly don’t need anyone’s acceptance, approval, understanding or permission to love anyone I please or to be exactly who I am. And I also want my basic human and civil rights. I do not plan on stopping wanting and advocating for them until I have them and then until every human being has them or until I stop breathing whichever comes first. However, I am very clear on the reality that I cannot achieve this alone or with only others like me. I do not need acceptance and approval on a personal level. But we all need it on a political level if we expect to achieve equal rights. I didn’t understand people’s posts about the good that can come from Obama’s statement as a cry to stop taking a critical view. I don’t believe politicians are anything but pawns for the financial elite who bought and paid for them. I have more than a critical view of all political figures. But again we cannot achieve anything alone. It is necessary to have support to affect change. I can understand both the impotence legislatively speaking of Obama’s statement and the monumental importance of it. I have seen many going beyond unequivocal cheerleading that have been quite delighted with Obama's statement. I don't think it is only those who are not unequivocally cheerleading who are taking a critical view. I also haven't seen all those not unequivocally cheerleading being labeled as "picking apart" and diversive.

[BullDog]

We are definitely reading some of the posts as well as the original article quoted differently then.

I think you are over stating things on your end. I am not looking for cheerleaders.

I think those of us on the left have a tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to strategy and trying to work towards positive change.

There are queer issues that wouldn't affect me directly- such as trans sex/trans gender that I would still support. I would support them because of people I care about personally as well as my community. It would also be smart in a strategic sense.

The anti-marriage queers don't want certain legal rights to be attached to marriage. I can see the point, but truly I would like to make some progress instead of holding out for the Revolution which may never come.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The anti-marriage queers don't want certain legal rights to be attached to marriage. I can see the point, but truly I would like to make some progress instead of holding out for the Revolution which may never come.

I sincerely hope it comes and soon. But I do agree with your point.

[julieisafemme]

Thank you Sparkle! The only thing I am picking apart are the public policy questions that will lead to federal legislation recognizing same sex marriage. I am from California and Prop 8 was such a painful blow. I could not believe the voters did that.

What if, G-d forbid, Obama does not win? What if we cannot get change on the federal level in the next four years and the next administration seeks to strengthen DOMA?

What if everything goes well and marriage equality is the norm and the rest of the LGBT issues are put on the back burner for another decade?

I don't necessarily have answers for all these questions. I am just asking them because I want to know what others think.