Denying Children cause Parents are Lesbians

[dreadgeek]

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

Originally Posted by softness

DG.....I am not wanting to defend Catholisiscm (sp?) in this thread. I do want to point out that the true debate is the rights of this lesbian couple to send their child to a school of their choice. Choice being the operative defining word.

As an empath, I find it very suffocating spiritually when people are not given choices.

And what message does the church's stance and decision send to those (and all, for that matter) children? That their parents have failed them...all by their lesbianism,

my mother was literally physically thrown out of church and told not to come back when she confessed she and my father were using birth control. Condoms. I was the last child and my birth almost killed my mother. She was TERRIFIED of getting pregnant again. She came to confession to be absolved of her sin, and would not budge when the priest insisted she had to stop using condoms. He got out of his confessional and went to her booth, grabbed her by the arm and put her out the main doors, and said she was no longer welcomed there but her children could come so that the church could at least try to redeem them.

I grew up with that shit in my head. I turned the church against my mother. If not for me, she would have been a good Catholic.

and I want to add one more personal thing here..

I attend mass every once in awhile now. My roots are definitly in pagan ways (my people in the old country were druids) As an adult I dont hold the church responsible for what that one priest did to my mother during that point in history. The priest we have now in that same church is the very reason I came back to going to mass at times. He welcomes my lesbian butt in those pews anytime I want to attend. He didnt flinch when my (now X) butch husband was pall bearer for both my mother and father...in a man's suit and tie. He shook my butch's hand and offered him sympathy for losing his mother in law. So, we also need to say, that not all priests and not all catholics follow doctrine to a T....

[Soft*Silver]

I read your post and smiled...I too want seperation of religion from government. In fact, whenever I have been vocal about this, I have gotten into heated ugly debates. As a 4H agent, I declared that our camp would not just say xtian prayers or sing xtian songs. If one religion's music and prayers were to be at camp, we had to include other religions materials too. Good lord, I really thought I was going to be tarred and feathered! I was trying to uphold our affirmative action policy AND honor the non xtian parents of children who called in and did not want to send their children to a camp that touted xtianity to such a large degree. It got really ugly...including bringing children to executive committee meetings so they would cry because I was changing the traditions of camp...

but I digress....

I respect what you had to say....I think we are more alike than not...

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

[Bit]

If that school does not accept federal funds, then it is not required to abide by federal nondiscrimination policies.

Quite honestly, I believe the girl has been done a HUGE favor. No matter where she goes to school now, she will know that some places are not trustworthy. I wish I had known that as a child, yanno?

[Rook]

This takes the cake.
On Both sides
One has the right to Education...the kids arent queer/lesbian/gay etc.., the parents are.
On the other hand, the archdiocese has every right given by the Bill of Rights as a Religion to enforce their Belief in their Institute however they deem Proper based on their Religion guided by their Head of Church {The Pope, who, if I'm not mistaken, each Pope has publically denounced homosexuality }
The mommies really should've seen this coming a Mile away....Especially if they're catholic {Emphasis on the If cuz I dont see the ladies affiliation}
This hits close to home, I don't have children, yet..
But if I do, I would like to consult my "better half" and be able to decide which education, religious/secular/specialized would be Ideal, and non-traumatic for my children..
I wouldn't want them Miserable in Recess, or P.E., simply because their parents are Different, they have enough on their plate as it is with their own formative years ..
My parents ..well, my father -cough- insisted I attended part-time Madrassahs, in addition to Montessori, when my mother divorced, she had to put us in Public schools, that transition was Hellacious for a few reasons, in addition to learning yet another new language, that and Roman Catholicism was pretty much every where {in addition to Pentecostal}, to the point, I wanted to be in a private catholic school, since the Education seemed ...10 x better.
If I had fights{I'm sure others too}, almost on a daily basis in public junior/High..Imagine what those kids would face in a private Catholic school?
so, yeah, I agree with Aj
Keep church and state Separate, let them pick and Choose, find a better School that teaches Acceptance, maybe Tolerance...
Or..
Home school, if you really really want them educated within Your religion/beliefs..
There are ways to socialize Home Schooled kids.
If it works for the Amish {They're not homeschooling per se, but..they stay amongst themselves for the most part, and after 8th grade, they're removed from School, for religious reasons} ~shrug~ why not?

[Lusciousblondefemme]

I want to thank everyone for having a adult conversation about this subject

[AtLast]

Related media info about this I have seen includes other parents at this school supporting this woman and her right to send her child to a Catholic school. I think this is positive in letting that diocese know that this is flat out discrimination.

As I said earlier, many people, including lesbians and gays (and this queer) do want their kids in religious schools due to the strength of their education. Religious schools are filled with kids that are not even of the faith they represent. It is not a requirement that a student be Catholic to attend a Catholic school. Same goes for other religious schools. In fact, parents can request that their child not be in specific religious doctrine classes in Catholic schools (Catechism) I am acquainted with. I guess the various diocese have different rules, I don't know.

In all of this, I do feel this child's civil rights are being violated especially when you consider that the school is doing this because a parent is lesbian. I also respect the mother's feelings if she indeed, does want her child to have religious teaching. No, in terms of how anti-gay the Catholic church is, this doesn't make sense, but, I certainly had experiences within Dignity (lesbian-gay Catholic offshoot) as well as Newman Centers in college that I felt comfortable within as a lesbian. Just making the point that this isn't a black & white issue in terms of the homophobia in the Catholic church. I have friends and relatives that still practice Catholicism, but attend mass, etc. in more liberal parishes in which the priests do admonish the anti-gay stance of the church. Kind of like how many other organized religions have rebel parishes and priets, etc. that go against the grain.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Bit

If that school does not accept federal funds, then it is not required to abide by federal nondiscrimination policies.

Quite honestly, I believe the girl has been done a HUGE favor. No matter where she goes to school now, she will know that some places are not trustworthy. I wish I had known that as a child, yanno?

But, even if they did accept federal funds, currently there is no Federal Non-Discrimination Act that covers gays, lesbians and trans folks, so why would they be proteced?

Maybe I am mistaken with the law.
----

In the Catholic schools in my (Ontario) area (which are entirely publicly funded), there are Muslim and Jewish (among other denominations) students, students and teachers who are divorced; students with parents who are gay; and teachers who are living with their partners. I don't know of an Out gay teacher as of yet, however.

There is also talk of GSA's (Gay/Straight Alliances) being formed in Catholic schools in my area (a handful of public schools have them already).

Interesting thread.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

But, even if they did accept federal funds, currently there is no Federal Non-Discrimination Act that covers gays, lesbians and trans folks, so why would they be proteced?

I don't know the law exactly, but I'm pretty sure no public school in the US can expel a student for being gay--or for their parents' being gay.

Does anyone else know?

[Lusciousblondefemme]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_lesbian_prom_date

Ok i came accross this one now .. What the hell is wrong with this world..

Constance McMillen didn't believe her Mississippi school district would really call off her senior prom rather than allow her to show up with her girlfriend and wear a tuxedo.

Holy hell why the hell can't she bring who she wants to the prom she is paying for her tickets right...

[Diva]

I believe Medusa has invited her to our Big Gay Prom in August! I hope she attends!