The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

Bully I don't know if this is a response to me or your having random thoughts but...

I don't think claiming woman plays into the binary either, unless of course you don't feel like one and you do anyway... that does play into the binary.

With that I don't think that other genders claiming women if we don't own it furthers those identities (and "Other" has been around as long as female or male and also very oppressed) nor does it further women... or make either any "freer".

Bully, in the same way you embrace being a woman as you do butch, I have the "right" to fully embrace being "other" as I do butch... and like you it's empowering to me to embrace who I am... and to still stand with everyone who was born female in this sexist world... whether they be butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I don't think you have to be "woman" to feel some of the sting of or fight sexism... I'm still a female and I didn't break free from that ball and chain (sexism). But really if all genders fought it... not just women (or as women) it wouldn't even exist. Somehow I think I'm far from finished in fighting sexism and misogyny, whether from the mouths of butch, other genders, males or right from the mouths of women... you know... fight the real enemy, sexism... not those that aren't women.

And... I do think the binary's a "major problem" in the very least it's being held over peoples heads as "the normal" (including all butches etc.), in the worst if you don't fit into it, it can mean becoming just another hate crime statistic.

Peace
Metro

ETA: I, myself, don't want to go into the politics of how my gender as a female who doesn't identify as women affects women as a whole... I pretty much am dropping the politics of gender in favor of accepting myself in my gender and exactly what it is for me, not for what it does for/to others.

It's not about anyone else and I'm happy to keep it that way and just be done with all the should or shouldn't(s) of gender, I've done that too much already.

[BullDog]

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if not it's just another opportunity lost*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if it doesn't it's just another opportunity lost*

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

Ok Bull... no need to explain, I know I can take you at your word and I'll just re-read a little.

Thanx,
Metro

[BullDog]

Thanks Metro.

[BullDog]

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?