What attracts you to Ftms ......

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[BullDog]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

Oh my god! Really, you think that's what I'm talking about?


I'm not going to get sucked into a discussions of the idiot thoughts, ideas and action that happened "back then" And am not questioning whether they happened.


Would a better example be....people from a small town?? No, cause then I'm dismissing or um...insinuating that city people are rude, crude and socially undesierable.


This is my point. Common decency, when talking about behavior, is not a political thing to me. It's, holy crap, don't let your kids run all over the store yanking all the darn clothes of the racks onto the floor. It's, oh my god, don't run me over trying to get the last stone cold creamer. And maybe....em....let me out into the road if there is a red light and you're waiting for it anyways. The small things.

Not the big stupid political and social ills of the past. The little stuff. That's my common decency.

How can I talk about the things that work for me in my life and my relationship without having someone remind me of the evils of society, WHICH I AM NOT DISMISSING, especially in the era people seem hell bent on smearing on my idea of normal for me.


j

[princessbelle]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by femmsational

...
Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.
j

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

LOL!! I think you're on the same track I'm on, not sure it's the "right track"


I don't think that I would say Brute and i *enjoy* cause that's kinda like a preference. I would say that the core of who we are, UNFORTUNATLY, fit into societies version of stereotypical binary gender roles. (phew. mouth full that was)


And I think that's where this issue starts to go sideways. First people are lazy in language and thought. Second, there really is no correct language to use in this instance because it all revolves back to societal ideas. I just have to call bullshit on that.

All of us, especially me, need to be more careful when talking about what makes us tick as an individual. Words matter and sometimes if we would take two more seconds to think, we might pick a word that doesn't push other peoples buttons.

But on the flip side, if what works for me is something that society labels one thing, please don't dismiss that what works for me, may work for me outside of societies ideas or sterotypes. Just because what works for me is something that screams out OPPRESION, does not mean that it's not me. Or that I am glamorizing or wishisg for that oppresion. And when people say that being a certain way is wrong or does not acknowlege the hardships of the past, that is just as off base as someone glamourizing the 50's or pick an era.


There has got to be a way to not have this same argument over and over.


I'm not trying to be right or prove a point or any such nonsense. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about my relationship, without offending others. Cause whatever I may say, could and usually does illicet this type of response. It's hurtful and sad. It would be nice to feel free to just speak about my truth without being so worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing because of societies limitations.



j

[BullDog]

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.