"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Soon]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

I love good manners!

But yes, I would rather be paid as an equal in the work place over someone buying me dinner I can afford and expecting something in return. I would rather be the one paying and expecting .

Chivalry to me brings up Medieval courtly expectations of a knight in shining armor rescuing a poor defenseless maiden sort of thing.

[Hack]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.

-----------
Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.


Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

I think you put a finger on my problem....the whole "a lady acts this or that way" and yes I found it very shaming growing up.

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored.

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[Apocalipstic]

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

[Liam]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

I see your points and I see Liam's, too. It figures.... I analyze the hell out of so much. And get caught up in the abstract often.

The new femme thread that takes a look at some of these issues is really helping me. There are a multitude of stereotypes about all of us, including our trans members. And to me, it just ends up being a perpetuation of the binary for all of us. Makes me crazy! There are times, I just want to live on an island with my dog and cats.. just us!

I'm thinking, however, about what Liam is talking about in terms of why we (me included) have the negative attachments to some of the traditional gender and role stereotypes. Some of these are not negative attributes at all, until we assign negative feelings to them which usually (for me, anyway) come up due to things that I have experienced or seen someone I care about experience.

This discussion got me thinking about my brother's early death (age 47) who as a male in this culture (along with specific ethnic ideas of what males/masculinity should be), who was an alcoholic and would not seek treatment based upon many stereotypes of what masculine or being male means in this culture. Now, he also was born in 1946, a teen in the 50's, was the only son in a family that viewed passing on our name as only legitimate through males. His drinking was not recognized as anything but what men do for a very long time (the denial was very strong down the patriarchal line). And to seek help for alcoholism (wasn't called that- he became a problem drinker when he passed the teen years). Because we lived in a small town and he was a well known business person involved in the community, he wouldn't dare go to AA. He was a hunter and did all the man-guy stuff, including womanizing. You know, it was the booze, not him, really. And hey, a man that can drink, is a man's man.

In the end, he did not take responsibility for his addiction and actions and allowed all of this traditional male behavior nonsense to kill him. I make no excuses for his not dealing with his problems. However, I can see how gender stereotypes can tip the balance with these kinds of things. It wasn't manly to admit you had any kind of problem with anything and do something about it. Especially if treatment was medical or involved therapy or even self-help programs such as the 12-step programs.

On the other hand, look at what our society does to the female alcoholic. Ever hear, nothin' worse than a woman drunk? Women are so sloppy when they drink too much. She's a bad mother because she is an alcoholic. I don’t care to be around anyone that is drunk, woman or man! My brother had a child and was a single parent, but no one ever said anything about his inability to parent effectively due to his drinking. In fact, he was praised for being a single parent, yet, I took his child away from him and drove him places many times and just brought him to my house because I didn't want him to drive with the kid while he was drinking, or just plain drunk.

Probably rambling..... I just want a new set of gender roles that align with our part of a time when we have so much more to work with and build a more healthy world concerning gender identity and behavior. Yes, I am ideological…. I want us to leave something behind that kicks these stereotypes to the curb!!!

The link to the Fierce femme Thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1126