"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored.

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[Apocalipstic]

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

[Liam]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

I must of misread then, cause I swore that this thread was about *discussing* masculinity and traditions.. I believe the OP asked for our thoughts on this, I mean I did not honestly think this was just for traditional type folks..

You assuming I am not into *traditional* masculinity is jumping the gun no? Do you know this for sure? I don't get where you think I am stiffling or putting anyone down, what I was DOING was discussing or rather asking and wondering what is that exactly?

I do think we have evolved from the whole me tarzan you jane theory of us. I dunno maybe I am wrong and you are foreign to the evolved concept (me assuming) I mean really do we want to be stuck in these presumed roles? Curious I really am? Kinda has a scent of misoginy, a lil machismo going on and other stuff..

[weatherboi]

When I read the OP I felt they were asking for a discussion about what is deemed "Traditional" masculinity. I didnt think this was a thread to discuss "what is a real man" thread, so I am going to go with the "it is a discussion" theory. I also remember reading an invitation to femmes to assert their opinions!!!!

When I hear "Traditional" masculinity, my mind screams role segregation. Segregation of education, housework, profession, decision making, childcare/ child education. I don't equate "Traditional" masculinity to opening doors, holding out chairs, blah, blah and etc. I DON'T equate masculinity with Topping/bottoming or D/s roles. IMO those acts are my "get to's" in any relationship I am participating in not gender defining to me as a guy.

Breaking down masculinity in todays society would entail looking at the impact of gender on a global scale not on an individual scale. How gender relationships connect institutionally and create global gender order/priviledge with in globally large communities(YES) and large buisness corporations (YES) that act as large communities. I would think it would be like breaking down and understanding any other hierarchy system or systemic priviledge pattern.

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes.

[Dylan]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

[Dylan]

Ok, so then, here's where I get completely confused in these conversations

If 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are culturally based, and

If One believes those cultural bases are misogynist, and

If One is going to scoff 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine

Then why are we always talking about it?

I mean, why aren't we all just happy with who we are? And if we are all happy with who we are/however we are...why are we always talking about this?

I don't mean that in a harsh tone, I mean it seriously. I mean, are we trying to redefine it? What is the ideal outcome of (say) this conversation?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here.

I mean, are we talking about the ways these 'traditional' ideas are perpetuated in our community? Because I've seen that happen to both femmes and butches, and that's pretty crappy...but then, on the other hand, if traditional ideas are someone's cuppa, then, I have a choice to participate or excuse myself, right? I mean, some people like all that traditional stuff, and some folks don't like all that traditional stuff, right?

I mean, I don't think someone should base their whole 'worth' on some stupid traditional idea of what is or isn't masculine/feminine...and I DO get a bit riled when I see stuff like, "this is how a butch/femme *should* act"

And I do get a little riled up when I see masculine/feminine being equated to what het men/women do...and that's how 'butches and femmes *should* act'

So, is this what we're talking about in this thread

And Atlast brought up that some of the 'traditional' ideas are based in misogyny...can someone please give me an example, so I'm more clear on exactly what we're talking about there? Because, I DO think *some* (notice the little asterisks, please) notions are rooted more in biological differences than 'traditional sexism' (notice the bunny ears, please). Oh, and I'm not saying that just because they may have originally been rooted in biological differences, they're not sexist in today's society.


I Hope This Post Is Clear, Although, I Have My Doubts,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.

Absolutely, they are culturally based. And unfortunately, in US culture, we have the perpetuation of white male as the ideal and the one with continued privilege.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

I think what always gets to me in these conversations is the acceptance of what has been traditionally equated with both masculine and feminine in US culture, yet, we have this whole new gender perspective at our disposal to break these concepts down. In doing so, it seems like we could free so much of what has oppressed us.

Behaviors like carrying books, opening doors, etc. to me, are just part of a person's internal value system or nature and don't have a thing to do with gender identification really. Not the complex nature of gender that I see many friends dealing with if they are struggling with transition issues. Or, for me as a butch woman.

My perfect world would be one that had more of the two-spirit or ideas formed about gender in other cultures that have not been based upon the binary. But, I am stuck with being in the US and growing up with a very oppressive take on not only gender, but gender roles based upon the binary. And this contamination seems to be seeping through to newer ways of viewing gender from a perspective that does not accept a binary system. Where is the progress?

For the record, I want to apologize for my using crap in my initial post on the thread. it was insensitive. I do get worked-up when I see stereotypes of mascilinity and feminity thrown around. But, I should not have said that.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

I see your points and I see Liam's, too. It figures.... I analyze the hell out of so much. And get caught up in the abstract often.

The new femme thread that takes a look at some of these issues is really helping me. There are a multitude of stereotypes about all of us, including our trans members. And to me, it just ends up being a perpetuation of the binary for all of us. Makes me crazy! There are times, I just want to live on an island with my dog and cats.. just us!

I'm thinking, however, about what Liam is talking about in terms of why we (me included) have the negative attachments to some of the traditional gender and role stereotypes. Some of these are not negative attributes at all, until we assign negative feelings to them which usually (for me, anyway) come up due to things that I have experienced or seen someone I care about experience.

This discussion got me thinking about my brother's early death (age 47) who as a male in this culture (along with specific ethnic ideas of what males/masculinity should be), who was an alcoholic and would not seek treatment based upon many stereotypes of what masculine or being male means in this culture. Now, he also was born in 1946, a teen in the 50's, was the only son in a family that viewed passing on our name as only legitimate through males. His drinking was not recognized as anything but what men do for a very long time (the denial was very strong down the patriarchal line). And to seek help for alcoholism (wasn't called that- he became a problem drinker when he passed the teen years). Because we lived in a small town and he was a well known business person involved in the community, he wouldn't dare go to AA. He was a hunter and did all the man-guy stuff, including womanizing. You know, it was the booze, not him, really. And hey, a man that can drink, is a man's man.

In the end, he did not take responsibility for his addiction and actions and allowed all of this traditional male behavior nonsense to kill him. I make no excuses for his not dealing with his problems. However, I can see how gender stereotypes can tip the balance with these kinds of things. It wasn't manly to admit you had any kind of problem with anything and do something about it. Especially if treatment was medical or involved therapy or even self-help programs such as the 12-step programs.

On the other hand, look at what our society does to the female alcoholic. Ever hear, nothin' worse than a woman drunk? Women are so sloppy when they drink too much. She's a bad mother because she is an alcoholic. I don’t care to be around anyone that is drunk, woman or man! My brother had a child and was a single parent, but no one ever said anything about his inability to parent effectively due to his drinking. In fact, he was praised for being a single parent, yet, I took his child away from him and drove him places many times and just brought him to my house because I didn't want him to drive with the kid while he was drinking, or just plain drunk.

Probably rambling..... I just want a new set of gender roles that align with our part of a time when we have so much more to work with and build a more healthy world concerning gender identity and behavior. Yes, I am ideological…. I want us to leave something behind that kicks these stereotypes to the curb!!!

The link to the Fierce femme Thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1126

[Dylan]

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

Yeah, I get what you're saying...about people putting their ideas of "What is Feminine/Masculine" on you (personally)

But let's say, I'm ovah here livin' Mahhh Life with Mahhh Woman, and we stick to traditional roles of masculine/feminine...and we're both quite happy doin' so...livin' in bliss

Does that make me a knuckle-draggin' Neanderthal? Does it make Mahhh Woman an Edith Bunker who "just can't think for herself"?

I mean, yeah, I think we've ALL dated that one (or two or three) random person who has some ideas of masculine/feminine that don't jive with our own ideas, and I'm sure we've all felt limited/stifled/put upon in those situations where we're told we're not butch/femme enough for ThatPerson.

But in this particular conversation, I didn't see anyone say anything about you (personally) aside from Liam saying something that maybe you don't partner with those people who are into (what's deemed) "traditional" masculinity. I mean, I kinda get the same idea from all of your posts. If it's not your cuppa, then it's not your cuppa. If it is your cuppa, then it is. But based on your posts (throughout the years), I too have gotten the sense that you don't live your life following 'traditional' ideas of masculinity/femininity. I mean, you've said that a number of times in this thread, no? Am I misreading you? I didn't see where anyone said that's a bad thing...it just is what it is.

But (again) if me and mine wanna have at all the "traditional" stuff, does that make us cave people who don't have a working neuron in our brains?


Dylan