The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by femmeInterrupted

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

ok...so I know this is an older post, and we're all commenting on it now and talking about it, which is really super awesome.

I, however, have LOTS OF FEELINGS about it.

First: confusion. I do not understand why an afro-latina femme dyke is freaking out about privilege for queer white femmes in relation to invisibility. Is there not privilege in passing for a straight afro-latina woman also? I understand race politics are messy and I am loathe to open that can of worms here, it just looks like the person who made the photo was trying to make a comment about those racial politics but missed her mark. Is she implying that femmes of color are recognizable as dykes?

Second: Calling people out on privilege. This is something that has becoming REALLY popular lately. Instead of having teachable moments where we can learn and be educated and educate others, we have somehow gotten to this place where everything is instantly viewed as a personal insult, and every vestige of privilege needs to be called out, scorned, and turned into a competition of "I have less privilege than you". I can't stand it. I had a friend who would spend all of their time berating people for what they believed was privilege and cultural appropriation. Most of the time, they were just searching for reasons to blame everyone else for things that were beyond their control. They are no longer my friend because they cannot tell the difference between malicious insult and being uninformed.

Third: I believe invisibility is a problem for folks looking to find people to date. How can a person find a partner if they don't know who to look for/consider as a possible match? I would love to go out on dates, but the only people who approach me are cis-gendered men. I indicate interest to masculine-presenting folks, but that is often considered "too forward". For me, there is no appearance-based characteristic to indicate my sexual/relationship preferences and that causes a problem because it immediately discounts the prospect of being seen as a member of the community at first glance. For me, I will have to invest the time to talk to someone and choose to disclose the information that I am queer to make my identity known. I will have to trust that people interested in potentially making a match with me for whatever reason will be able to put in the time to find out that information. Sometimes people just want to be able to look and know.


Sorry for the novel. Thank you for letting me speak my mind. I hope some of you lovely folks might be able to help me understand what's going on with that photo and the subsequent discussion. I promise I am not trying to be insulting, just curious (and slightly ranty about invisibility).

[candy_coated_bitch]

I'm so glad that folks are posting in this thread again. I want to write, and hate doing the whole multi-quote thing but will try and make it clear when I am responing to someone else.

One of the best things I've ever read on the myth of "Femme Privilege"

I swear I could kiss that woman on the mouth for that if I ever meet her. It touches more eloquently on some of the things I was trying to say in my post than I could. Food for thought.

Katzchen (if I knew how to make the little two dots above the "a" I would LOL)--Oh yes, I really like your analogy with the mascara wand and issues of "clumping". All of this stuff tends to bump up against each other in often messy, not so pretty ways. Including invisibility!

Yes, why would anyone RELISH being invisible? Gee, that's so enjoyable, right? But it goes beyond that. I loved what the author of the blog pointed out about the reconstruction of the closet as oppressive. Fucking AMEN. The notion of straight unil proven otherwise I think is oppressive for ANYONE queer, and that the burden of having to constantly come out and explain ourselves as Femmes is absolutely a type of erasure, silencing, and yes, oppression. Also, even in our own communities--Femmes are often viewed as suspect. An almost "guilty until proven innocent" kind of thing when it comes to femininity.

And once proven legitimate--how is that legitimacy so quickly removed? So often based on whom we choose to partner with? It's ludicrous! I really wish there were better ways of explaining and understanding Femme beyond "Oh I like Butches". That's all well and good and often a part of Femme sexuality--but it is NOT what Femme is about. I feel like we (general we) are able to recognize that Femme is a gender but not really able to explain it. The easiest way for me to come out has always been an explanation regarding who my partner/potential partners are. Which is fucked! And now that the option of doing that, for me, is removed, or more complicated, or whatever--I dearly wish I had better words to explain "Femme" other than something vis avis who I am fucking.

ScandalAndy: I really liked your post and had actually been thinking about coming back and writing something here raising some of the questions you did. Like I said earlier--I think issues of power and privilege are complicated, but yeah WTF with the Oppression Olympics. I would ABSOLUTELY think an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke (or other Femme of color) would experience issues of invisibility in similar ways. I'm not really sure what she was getting at either, except an odd way of saying she thinks racism is a more important issue for her? Which it may very well be for many Femmes of color, I couldn't speak on that. My feelings on my own experience are not somehow invalid because I am white. It doesn't make issues of Femme (in)visibility less real. A Femme of color may have other issues going on that make things more complicated, that may make issues of (in)visibility more or less salient. Sure, I get that. And I'm pretty sure a lot of white Femmes wanting to talk about this stuff get it. I'm not going to fucking shut up just because racism exists. I want to try my best as a white person to be an ally (I may not always be successful) and listen to important conversation when I have the opportunity. But I will NOT stop having feelings because I am white, or stop speaking about the ways I experience other forms of oppression just because I am white.

That picture SO left a bad tatse in mouth partially because I felt it insinuated that white Femmes couldn't be aware of their own invisibility AND acknowledge issues around racism at the same time. But, I am perfectly able to acknowledge both, thank you. I am not an air head and my mind can handle it without exploding.

I think it WOULD be inappropriate to continually bring up issues of invisibility during a conversation Femmes of color were trying to have about race. Like, saying "oh yeah but I'm so invisible" and hijacking the conversation. THAT is Oppression Olympics and inappropriate. I would never do that. That space for discussions about racism needs to exist and I respect that. I even wanna learn from that. HOWEVER, a Queer White Femme making comments and speaking on her own outside of that--um, no. Just don't even dismiss that shit just because I am white. That in and of itself feels like an other type of silencing that just does not sit well with me.

I fully believe this issue of (in)visibility goes well and beyond some "hurt feelings". I think the blog entry, again, touches on some of that stuff really wonderfully. The question about how much privilege a feminine woman really accesses is an important one, I think. Enough with the red herrings already.

And finally--Chancie. I liked your post. I also agree that I find descriptors such as: "high," "true," "pure," etc. disconcerting. I suspect that their usage in and of itself is a result of feelings around Femme (in)visibility, even unconsciously. I mean--what is a "pure" Femme? What qualities or traits or behaviors can make a Femme IMpure (i.e. less Femme)? How does that even make sense, really? But I think we feel those things! I think those pressures and stereotypes exist. I think using such adjectives show a real need for a Femme to assert her Femmeness and femininity, to stand out, to legitimize herself. When really, ANY embodiment of Femme is true, pure, natural, uber, and the highest form of Femme possible.

[julieisafemme]

I guess I am not understanding what is so bad about what the femme wrote. She acknowledges that femme invisibility sucks and feels bad and should be something to discuss but that the "passing" of a white femme is a very different experience than of a femme of color. I am not saying this be the good white person. I guess it reminds of the arguments people get into with transmen versus butches. Everyone has valid concerns and issues but no one ever hears anything because they are so busy being offended, othered and dismissed. Why can't people have their feelings that don't always acknowledge or make room for other's feelings?

This femme is entitled to her feelings and lived experience. Her experience does not negate or invalidate mine. I hope this makes sense. I am not trying to disagree with any of the posts here and I actually really appreciate all of the opinions.

[Nat]

That image above - that really gets under my skin. hmm.

You know, I really don't go around complaining about the invisibility and frankly if anybody paid attention I think my gayness is a bit visible except to the clueless.

However, I'm wondering if the word "invisibility" trivializes the lived experience. Other words I have found apply: on the outskirts, trivialized, not believed, invalidated, not a "real" lesbian, suspect.

Growing up, I knew some lesbians. In fact, my next-door neighbors were a lesbian couple. They weren't butch-femme. If anything, they were more butch-butch looking to my 10 year-old eyes. They used to have other lesbians over and drink beer and talk on their back driveway, the sound of their laughter and comradery were sounds that carried me to the window in the Texas dusk. The seemed to have what it seemed like so many men had - a sort of comradery that I didn't see among straight women. My mom is one of four sisters and they love each other and are very kind to each other. But the way these women related to each other - it was something I wanted very badly with other women and that I didn't see other women having. But that laughter, that kinship always seemed to be in some farther room - inaccessible. At first because I was in the closet, and later because I still wasn't that - type of lesbian who could have that sort of interaction with other lesbians. Sometimes I really wonder what it would be like to just be a butch among butches. It looks like heaven from the outside. But, I have found something - if not the same type of comradery as my neighbors' 80s get-togethers - amongst other femmes - and even in company of butches and femmes together. I guess what I'm saying is that it's nice to be in the company of people who know what the heck a femme is in the first place. There are few really who do know what a femme is - even in the queer world and even if the word "femme" is in the vocabulary.

[girl_dee]

just started a new job a few weeks ago. Of course i am invisible.

i am not sure why but by the 2nd or 3rd day homophobic comments had been released into the air and it cut my heart to hear. One is a young mom who has 3 children, saying
*What THOSE people do is between them and their God*
*I don't care what THOSE people do, but leave me out of it, and don't bring it around me*
*I don't care what THOSE people do but it's disgusting*

My supervisor made several comments about going into a gay section of town, and not very nice ones.

i assured both of them in a very respectful manner that i was sure the gays aren't interested in converting them, and left it at that

i really want and need this job so i remained quiet, knowing one day i would out myself whether it cost me the job or not.
It's a family owned business and very, very casual atmosphere. Of course they would not say they got rid of me because i am gay, but would find a way to work me out. After a month there i am pretty sure they have realized how fucking valuable i am and what a lottery they hit with me.

Then suddenly it all stopped. They seemed different to me in a nice way. Warming up to me even. Something is different.

Maybe they noticed the rainbow sticker on my car.

i chose not to go to combat in the beginning but to use my invisibility to show them what shallow minded idiots they are.

Maybe they will get rid of me, but i'm too old and tired for closets

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

ok...so I know this is an older post, and we're all commenting on it now and talking about it, which is really super awesome.

I, however, have LOTS OF FEELINGS about it.

First: confusion. I do not understand why an afro-latina femme dyke is freaking out about privilege for queer white femmes in relation to invisibility. Is there not privilege in passing for a straight afro-latina woman also? I understand race politics are messy and I am loathe to open that can of worms here, it just looks like the person who made the photo was trying to make a comment about those racial politics but missed her mark. Is she implying that femmes of color are recognizable as dykes?

<snip>

It's really bothering me that you used the expression 'freaking out'.

It may be that it's personal narrative style on your part, but

It's very dismissive.

It seems like an awkward choice when communicating your feelings and ideas about femme invisibility.

[pinkgeek]

Aloha! (Yeah we actually start business correspondance with Aloha! here.)

What many people don't realize about Hawaii is that being white is not an advantage, it is in many cases a disadvantage. What what? Yeah hard to believe, but Hawaii is the reverse of the rest of the country. POC rule the land here and honestly living here has been one of the most amazing and humbling experiences of my life. The reversal of privilege borders on unexplainable and I'm usually not bereft of an explanation.

Interesting unknown fact #2 is that outside of Honolulu which is largely a tourist trap being queer is unremarkable. QFs (queer femmes) are not invisible or passing; it's much more interesting and mostly awesome. Consider a life 99% without homophobia, welcome to my life on TBI (The Big Island). Is it gay mecca here? No, it's going to work, paying bills, and no one making any distinction between queerness and straightness. It's "hey let's go to the beach" at random.

While outright homophobia is rare as far as I have experienced bumbling strait folks are fairly common. They mess up pronouns, the importance of marriage equality and stumble over the right word for a committed relationship, but they do so in an effort (usually) to get it right. It is unfathomable to most people here that anything LGBT wouldn't be equal. I'm amused and often softened by the "well that's just dumb!" and "that kind of crap still happens?" that comes tumbling out of their mouths when inequality is discussed.

That said transfolk and queens here in particular MtF's have an INCREDIBLY difficult time and largely remain on the down-low in an insular community. Nothing is perfect. Our office in particular is working as hard as we can to break down that stigma and as the younger generation grows up the old ways of transphobia are becoming a thing of the past.

So how is this relevant? Living in a place where what I am and how I identify is largely a "not thing" has been exceptionally freeing. I am no longer annoyed by my invisibility elsewhere in the country/world. This beautiful place has given me an incredible, powerful and unique to me confidence about moving through the world.

PS - No one here is unaware that Hawaii should be it's own nation, was stolen in a reprehensible way etc. etc. While MyLadyMother won't ever choose to become an American she would become a Hawaiian citizen if she could. Folks who move here love it or hate it and everyone has a really cool story about how they got here.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Pink geek, that is how I felt in London.
I was accepted, seen, and to be totally honest, my I'd of femme suddenly wasn't all that important anymore. I didn't feel like it was needed. It was just a side descriptor of little importance, like blonde.
Being accepted into a local community with no hostility or defense or accusations, I'd get openly checked out by dykes on the escalators in the tube... No one gave a shit if I was straight or gay, they would still talk to me in a gay pub and flirt with me.
It felt like a 10 pound bag of wet cement had been lifted off me. I had local lezzo friends for the first time in my life. I suddenly "got" what it was like to have a community, a real one, in person. I no longer called people "my femme friends" because it no longer mattered to distinguish them.

There was no hierarchy of femme, because femme wasn't really discussed. You just happened to be one. And in person, all these discussions happen with close friends.

I love my old mates here, they are like my family. But yeah, I really do miss the unconcerned acceptance into lezzo land and that dykes of all kinds were unafraid to just flirt with anyone they wished and didn't give a toss if they wound up being straight.

However, white imperialist nation? Yeah. White still very much the dominant culture!!! Unless you are an immigrant white. Then, you get treated like shit. And don't ever, ever forget you are a foreigner. But white foreigners get it easier than poc foreigners.

Same old chestnut.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

unconcerned acceptance

Best description of "the spirit of aloha" I've ever heard, even though that's not what you were referencing.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Chancie

It's really bothering me that you used the expression 'freaking out'.

It may be that it's personal narrative style on your part, but

It's very dismissive.

It seems like an awkward choice when communicating your feelings and ideas about femme invisibility.

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Tis the thing about north american boards. One is talking to a public of a type of verbal interaction where you do have to be careful about insult. Which is why I dont post much anymore. My tone is too rough and my sense of humour too pisstaking and ironic/sarcastic. I know that what I've written above can be taken verify offensively. Oh well, I know what I mean, I think its OK with my friends who can challenge me back on the same level and then we can laugh, tease and discuss - which is my preffered style of debate. But people don't know me, so I try to keep my yap shut more often.
My face book is easier to have discussions as everyone k hows who I am and what I'm like.
It is so.etching of a skill to be mindful that no one knows me from a hole in the ground and my tone is likely make conveyed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

It's funny (not in a ha ha way but in the ironic way) that we both have this feeling of unsafety when posting. I know for me it comes from how I deliver things, they are never soft and pretty enough.

*I* did not make this space unsafe for you Andy, I spoke about the wording because as a WOC my experience is that when you do say something that white folk do not like to hear then we are painted as

LOUD

ANGRY

FLIPPING OUT

FREAKING OUT

SCREAMING

CONFRONTATIONAL

AGGRESSIVE


That's where I was coming from when I posted, it wasn't meant to imply anything ugly or cruel about Scandal Andy. I, personally at the time when I read it I was like..

"here we go"

Why?

Because it happens, it's happened and it will always happen that when a WOC uses art, media, music, or anything to express herself that unless it's prettied up then we are being *angry*


I don't get that from the collage, then again I get it somewhat....

[julieisafemme]

I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?

Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?

Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it.

Hi again, Julie.


I enlarged (via font) your question, in the above post, so it is clear to you that this is the question I will focus on, this time. This is the best answer I can give you at this time, even though I've spoken openly about the racial composition of my own family and social trials-by-fire we've endured:


First: The picture, in and of itself, does not upset me. It does not disturb me that an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke vocalises her contempt for a social system that rewards and provides safety for people who are *NOT* of color. I get where she's coming from in her life experience.


Second: My heart hurts for her.


Third: Why do I feel pain and why does my heart hurt??? It's not simple to explain, since I am technically not a woman of color, by modern day interpretation of law governing particular indiginous tribes (the matrilineal side of my family is Cherokee). My physical appearance is anything but indiginous; although the physical appearance of my mother and her mother and all other mothers before them, are not free of the color of their skin or ethnic markers. Even to this day, my mother is ashamed of her culture and indiginous markers because in her generation of time, they were treated very poorly by a social system that prevails to this day: White Privilege (which to me, encompasses four other "P's" - Power, Privilege, Pride & Prejudice). My mother's side of the family, to this day, will do anything to assimilate into White Culture so the sting of prejudicial treatment is not felt so strongly. However, the stigma of not being White is still very much a part of my mother's life.


Fourth: Much to my mother's distress, I would not give either of my son's up for adoption, nor have an abortion. I may have been brutalized and left for dead twice on both ocassions, but that's not a good reason to not care for two human beings who needed all the love I could give and provide for them. I've never regetted that the choice to keep my sons (who are Black).

However, our lives have never been easy, nor comfortable, nor has White Privilege been much of a benefit to us at all. Can you imagine the daily barrage of questions, such as: Why do you look white and your sons are black? I won't mention other extremely intrusive and offensive states we've endured, because like I said in my other post, I find it that it taxes every single last nerve I have to have to keep stating my life experience as proof to how I know how it feels to be excluded, to be told that I am nothing, that I don't matter, that there is no justice for someone like me or my sons. I used to think I could help by sharing my story, so that others might see and learn how it is that White Privilege is the worst socially upheld 'sin' and how it hurts emotionally, economically and socially, to the core, for those of us who are not white.

But I totally get the original authors contempt for and frustration with and lack of validation for who she is or is not seen by others. The very real existence of social inequality she is left to endure, with no help by a larger misguided social system which upholds White Privilege and the tenets that anchor this socially egregious way of feeling powerful or privileged or safe or protected or any other number of things one might believe to be a larger part of the problem that people of color face, is very real.

eta: I agree wholeheartedly with The_Lady_Snow's post - the reality She experiences in life and elsewhere as a Woman of Color. Thank You for Your post, Lady_Snow.