Are butches really a dying breed?

[Paradox]

Wasn't sure how to reply to this post.
Is butch a dying breed? I would think that would depend on how Butch is defined. I believe if you are you are referring to traditional rigid male role then perhaps yes as more of the community (young/new members) break away from less fluid terms. Again not saying a stone butch is wrong or right, but how the word is broadly defined.

I live in Toronto, Canada, some may believe the mecca of gayville. It is rare to see OS butches and even less butch/femme couples.

I've been told I'm butch by straight people and not butch enough by some in the LGBT. I am perceived to be butch (how they define it) by what they see. I prefer tomboy, andro (with a slightly more masculine mannerism) because the duality is closer to how I feel rather than a need to fulfil someones' predefined butch label role.

I thought there was a declining population of femmes as well as femmes interested in non-femmes at least it seems that way here. And perhaps more so for anyone 40+.

One post asked a great question about what is it about the dynamic of butch/femme that is sought after? Is it for stereotypical hetero-normative roles?
- For myself it's finding a woman where we compliment each other. Since I don't wear heels or a dress/skirts that is one opposite - maybe she might. How she thinks and feels can make us whole. A femme for me doesn't mean that she must paint her nails, wear makeup, and have some one open the door for her but one with great character.

Originally Posted by Mr Nice Guy

I think that I'm blind to the Femmes in NH. I think they all look straight to me and I do attract straight women which boggles my mind. It's always been a problem since I was young. I'm still trying to figure it out. I even asked one time because I really wanted to know what I did to do that.

LOL - similar issue. Either I don't see them or I'm hidden from them. Straight women - less of an issue. But maybe to just satisfy a curiosity.

[SaltyButch]

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

[Paradox]

Merry Xmas to All !!

Hey SaltyButch.
Your live in Sauga terrority. How did you survive the ice storm?

I will not decline an opportunity to make a new friend - .

It is very hard to find people who are really, genuinely comfortable 'being' and the community for such a space - particularly b/f is almost none-existent.

[SaltyButch]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Merry Xmas to All !!

Hey SaltyButch.
Your live in Sauga terrority. How did you survive the ice storm?

I will not decline an opportunity to make a new friend - .

It is very hard to find people who are really, genuinely comfortable 'being' and the community for such a space - particularly b/f is almost none-existent.

Hey Paradox,

I faired not too badly with the storm, I lost power for about 10 hours, the ice is still clinging to the tree's and alot of limbs are down and posing problems.
How did you fair?
I was recently told by a friend who has since moved to the US that there is a b/f community in Toronto which is thriving, I said really where, I'll have to check the website that she told me about.
If you want to chat a bit and perhaps meet up for coffee or such just drop me a line, I would welcome it.

Salty

[imperfect_cupcake]

No they aren't. There is plenty of them around. However, if you are preferable to a specific kind of butch and thus unable to spot any other kind, you may have that idea.
There are far far more than the kind that wear jeans and a tool belt. There are more than just OF or OS US style uniforms of it.
But that would require accepting that those who look like tomboys or "faggits" (the dapper/urban dressed) ones are butches. And no, black eyeliner doesn't make one a soft butch. It might make them goth or rock and roll or glam.


Alternatively I would also suggest there are only seven and the rest is done with mirrors.

[Galahad]

I'm pretty sure it isn't all done with mirrors. I've been seeing different bf couples every few weeks in shops or out walking. I'm living in a small town too. They have all been young, high school to early thirties.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

No they aren't. There is plenty of them around. However, if you are preferable to a specific kind of butch and thus unable to spot any other kind, you may have that idea.
There are far far more than the kind that wear jeans and a tool belt. There are more than just OF or OS US style uniforms of it.
But that would require accepting that those who look like tomboys or "faggits" (the dapper/urban dressed) ones are butches. And no, black eyeliner doesn't make one a soft butch. It might make them goth or rock and roll or glam.


Alternatively I would also suggest there are only seven and the rest is done with mirrors.

Honeybarbara, a friend of mine has been complaining for 10 years about a lack of butches in Vancouver, BC. I have wondered if she means butches of a certain age group, though. She's pretty savvy about spotting butches with varying styles, in other cities. I'm curious, do you notice that the butches, of all styles, are in a particular age group in your area? Or is that a misperception on my part?

[imperfect_cupcake]

I see oodles of butches all over the place and there is a huge community of queer here. I see them every day. They dress anywhere from tomboy to hippy to queer fashionista to outdoorsy looking les.

She may not be noticing many because like you may look like a soccar mom, they look like they are about to go for a hike and look tomboy androgenous lezzo in their gear. Some of the butches wear make up (and are stone and tops).

I live in the east end of vancouver, but that said there are tons of sporty butches in the burbs. she is probably mistaking them for chapstick/sporty dykes. just like you might get misjudged as a soccar mom.

tell her to get her ass to queer as funk, queer box fit, the butch choir, or one of the leather events. Plus there is the queer film festival, the the queer arts events (always brings them out in droves), season fling queer dances at the wise hall, Man Up (stuffed full of butches)... and... well to list everything I'd have to go into my fb events. If she needs to see them dressed up and in context

if she is talking about over a certain age (45 or so) yeah, they are thin on the ground. cause like everyone else, they usually have a partner/wife. Or they come from a time when it was really bad to have the ID. they still fuck the same and move the same and treat me the same, they just don't ID because they think it's wrong. But a rose by any other name is still one

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by SaltyButch

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

I agree that maybe some of the rigidity is softening around the edges but for Me being younger, the "old school" is comforting. I like structure. I like that rigidness. It is a foundation to take what is there and build on it. Take the model and cast it anew... if you will.

ANYONE who tells someone else they are not "enough" of something needs to take a step (or 5) back and rethink that statement. I know as humans we judge. It is what we "do" .. but we are not judge and jury over what anyone else "is" or "does".

Everyone brings their own style to a "label". Like I said before. TWIST the label until it fits. *G

I do some things that some might consider a little feminine... I am careful with My grooming and My choice of clothes. Every butch I know is the same way. Are we cookie-cutter models. No. It is a matter of pride. Some days I am a slouch but I don't go out in public like that. I wear pink. Sometimes silk. AND, I wear it well.

Call me "less than". Go on. Your opinion of Me is not My business.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I live in Toronto, Canada, some may believe the mecca of gayville. It is rare to see OS butches and even less butch/femme couples.

Hi Paradox,

This made me wonder: is Toronto perhaps not the mecca of gayville, but only the mecca of a certain subgroup of gayville?

I'm familiar with the idea of Toronto as a gay mecca, although my perception was that it was more of a mecca for gay men. I'm not sure where I got that idea, and it could simply be another case of "women are often ignored in the media."

Could it be that the OS b/f mecca is located elsewhere? I think in the Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia area we still have quite a lot. There are certainly lots of queer people who identify in other ways, and maybe it's because I've lived here for 27 of my 48 years, but I see butches and femmes all the time who are people I don't know and don't recall ever having seen before. Of course, I'm the one identifying them as what I would call "butch" and "femme", and I don't ask them how they self-identify. (Do work pants and a tool belt make a butch? . . . gosh, I hope so.)

I'm not claiming the b/f capitol for our own, but I'm wondering what others think? (I'll need to start thinking of retirement communities fairly soon, and I don't think Scottsdale, Arizona would suit me.)

[Leigh]

i hope not cuz I'm still looking for a butch of my own

I think it maybe something that many of us experience.
I too live in a UK town well known for it's gay population and nights out for all. However, I've not met any others that embrace the b/f dynamic.
Sadly we're a very, very small subset of a small subset.

It's my experience that there's more access to other b/f folks in the large conurbations; Manchester, London etc. but even then we're still a tiny minority.

It's why we come places like the Planet to find kindred spirits and people who share our life experiences.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Hi Paradox,

This made me wonder: is Toronto perhaps not the mecca of gayville, but only the mecca of a certain subgroup of gayville?

I'm familiar with the idea of Toronto as a gay mecca, although my perception was that it was more of a mecca for gay men. I'm not sure where I got that idea, and it could simply be another case of "women are often ignored in the media."

Could it be that the OS b/f mecca is located elsewhere? I think in the Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia area we still have quite a lot. There are certainly lots of queer people who identify in other ways, and maybe it's because I've lived here for 27 of my 48 years, but I see butches and femmes all the time who are people I don't know and don't recall ever having seen before. Of course, I'm the one identifying them as what I would call "butch" and "femme", and I don't ask them how they self-identify. (Do work pants and a tool belt make a butch? . . . gosh, I hope so.)

I'm not claiming the b/f capitol for our own, but I'm wondering what others think? (I'll need to start thinking of retirement communities fairly soon, and I don't think Scottsdale, Arizona would suit me.)

Yes I would agree that the Toronto LGBT 'scene' is more applicable and tailored towards subgroup (gay men). Not a very strong representation of queer women. No surprise really.
From your reply it brings a thought.
Are we not 'seeing' the b/f because we have a preconceived visual cues of what we believe b/f is?
Maybe they are out there but the image is far more different than before. From your example; Work pants and tool belt was (may still for some) be an automatic definer for a butch. Heels, purse and make up for a femme. Like wearing a uniform you knew what team they played for and what position (in theory). Now perhaps with the uniforms removed our prejudgements are kept at bay. (This sentence can be read in such a different way - )

Is this a good thing? In some ways definitely. It's the whole 'don't judge the book by it's cover' sort of thing.
The Flip side? It can make it harder to figure out a person.

So maybe there are more b/f and perhaps more femme that like butches/andro than I have noticed. Have to enhance my scanning skills.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

Originally Posted by Paradox

From your reply it brings a thought.
Are we not 'seeing' the b/f because we have a preconceived visual cues of what we believe b/f is?
Maybe they are out there but the image is far more different than before. From your example; Work pants and tool belt was (may still for some) be an automatic definer for a butch. Heels, purse and make up for a femme. Like wearing a uniform you knew what team they played for and what position (in theory). Now perhaps with the uniforms removed our prejudgements are kept at bay. (This sentence can be read in such a different way - )

Is this a good thing? In some ways definitely. It's the whole 'don't judge the book by it's cover' sort of thing.
The Flip side? It can make it harder to figure out a person.

So maybe there are more b/f and perhaps more femme that like butches/andro than I have noticed. Have to enhance my scanning skills.

Of course there are more types of butches than just the work pants/tool belt type. That was merely a personal wish on my part.

Paradox, now that you mention the "uniform", I rarely go out in "full drag", even though I id as high femme. There's no mistaking me for butch, as I've often been told. That said, your comment reminded me that I often don't bother to get all femmed up unless it's a special occasion or at least Saturday night. My everyday femme look comes off as more "soccer mom". I notice butches and femmes, but only because I've had 25+ years practice recognizing us in my particular community. If other folks aren't seeing me as femme instead of soccer mom, that's my fault, I suppose, for not making more of an effort to show my queerness all the time.