only another butch would understand

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask male id'd and transmen to look at their role in how masculinity is valued over femininity in on-line butch-femme communities.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).

I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.

If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").

The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.

Originally Posted by Toughy

If a butch decides they are male id'd or an individual decides they are a transman, then you have to take the hard with the easy. If you walk in the world as male/man then you are obligated to address (white) male privilege particularly in on-line space.

When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.

When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).

Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.

Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.

Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.

I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.

Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.

I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.

I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.

Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.

I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[BullDog]

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

I said pared down, yep. However, it was not directed specifically at you. I can provide examples in this thread where it has been pared down, if you like.

I tried to make it clear that I respect the position you (collectively) are in, and that I am trying to hear where you are coming from. I have not stated that I don't see male valued over female, I simply haven't addressed it because I don't disagree with it. Hell, I've lived it. I get it.

I don't know how to be more clear that I take no issue with that aspect of this discourse. What I take issue with, one more time, was the content of the last paragraph of your Tough Guise post.

It was/is exclusionary.

You were/are perpetuating the hierarchy. I won't accept that there is one. I won't play to it.

I've been around.

Now I see you calling the content here "ludicrous" and a "hate fest." Here is where I will remind you that you were the one who lit the match to the fire. You made transphobic statements, and now you accuse others of being hateful.

Last time I'm going to say it, accountability, it's a beautiful thing.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have

B. I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.



Dylan

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Dylan

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.

Dylan

Thank you.

[Toughy]

Me in this color

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).

I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.

Maybe the Tough Guise thread is the place for those discussions.

If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").

Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.


I'm up for it.



When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.

When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).

Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.

I would say this is a much larger conversation and this thread is probably not the thread.

Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.

I generally try to avoid being a hypocrite .......<grin>. I absolutely have male privilege when I am seen as man and let me tell ya.............geez......what an eye opener it was when I figured it out.......

Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.

Nor am I interested in negating anyone's individual experience. See above concerning responsibility.

[julieisafemme]

I hope it is ok for to me post here as a femme. I am partnered with a transmasculine butch. It is painful to hear these conversations when people get so upset that they want to leave or stop talking. I can hear the frustration and understand where both Bull Dog and Dylan are coming from.

The experience of male privilege that I see my partner enjoy is very different from that of a cisgendered male. His perspective as a butch and starting life as a female bodied person informs how he receives the privilege. Cisgendered men, in my experience, do not dissect or consider these everyday interactions as privilege. I also don't experience his male privilege the same way as I did when partnered with a biomale. It's all kind of new and we talk about it a lot. So because of this experience it does upset me to hear transmen taken to task and lumped in with biomales. It's not the same to me.

We had the great good fortune this Fall to attend Butch Voices and Gender Odyssey. I was so pleased at how respectfully these difficult conversations were handled at Butch Voices. Bear Bergmann and Jeanne Cordova did a fantastic job in moderating these topics. At Gender Odyssey it was amazing to see the range of gender expression and how people choose to live that gender expression. As a partner I appreciated hearing from other partners, women and men, whose gender and sexual orientation were different than mine.

It is possible to have these conversations and have everyone feel heard. Maybe not in this medium though.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toughy

<snip>
Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

[Cyclopea]

I understood "only another butch would understand" to mean a thread for support and bonding among butches regarding the issues and commonalities that only another butch could provide.
I did not understand it to mean "something ALL butches can understand or relate to". There is vast diversity among peeps who are butch. Age, class, education, gender, ethnicity, appearance, geography, life experience, etc. etc. I can't imagine a topic or concern that EVERY butch can understand or relate to. And why is that a bad thing?
I think a centralized thread for bonding and support that includes all types of butches does not dilute the thread's potential as a place to bond.

Someone earlier in the thread posted something about the pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed, and he sought support from other male-identified butches for that experience. Even though I am a butch woman, I enjoy reading and sharing the experiences of other types of butches, especially those seeking support, even if I DON'T understand them from my personal perspective. I can still empathize, and isn't that what butch-or any- bonding is all about?

One of the things that I get support around, and that only another butch would understand, is the experience of being a walking talking poster-child for "lesbianism" or "gay woman" among the general populace, 24/7, 365. And how that effects and impacts one's daily life, living - whether desiring to or not- as an ambassador of "gayness" among the public at large.
Now, I know full well this is something many butches go through. But NOT ALL, since butches are extremely diverse. I don't think that a topic set forth for butch bonding and support needs to be something universal among every butch that exists. We can all appreciate and learn from each other that way, and no one should be afraid to reach out for support and understanding out of fear that every single butch on the planet might not understand. And we should not hesitate to seek support for specifically butch concerns that might also be concerns of allies or those who do not id as butch. For example, hetero women who present visually as "butch", and others might also relate to the "gay billboard" experience I described above. Overlapping experiences should not prevent me seeking specific butch support as I see fit.

So I saw this thread as a positive place. If we need to start butch bonding threads specific to our particular type of butch, maybe that makes sense too, but I see nothing wrong with a centralized butch bonding thread.

And the "one star" rating makes me sad...

All the stuff around male privilege is very interesting but I'm not sure I see where peeps are asking for bonding and support around that? I don't at all discount that topic but I would like to see this thread get back to bonding and support for the things that only another butch can understand. Not criticizing! Just my preference and interpretation as to what this thread is intended to be...

It seems like many posts in this thread are specifically addressing the ways in which butches do NOT feel supported and understood by each other, and as valid as that conversation is it seems anathema to a thread created for butches to support and bond with each other. Good conversation, wrong thread.

My intentions for posting this are positive, and if someone wants to pick out a piece of something I said and point out how I could have stated it more clearly, that is fine. However if someone tries to turn my post into something ugly and negative and hateful- I will not respond.

Thank you for listening and thanks to all the butches who have posted, and allies.

[Cyclopea]

Bulldog and Toughy- you posted as I was composing mine and stated about getting back to the bonding- If I had seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of typing! Thanks for understanding.