In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[BullDog]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..

[BullDog]

Thanks Snow.

HB, I agree that describing or sensing someone else's "energy" is very subjective. It feels like a woo woo term to me, lol, but it is something I very much feel within myself and in other people's presence. It's like people have this buzz about them when they are in the room. Not very scientific or definite, I know.

[Martina]

Some people enjoy explaining most of their behaviors in terms gender. I remember a post I made about decorating, how I was currently into decorating with some very feminine touches. It had NOTHING to do with my gender. It was not an expression of me as femme. It was that I really liked those colors and those touches right now. Next year, I might be attracted to all steel and wood. (I don't decorate that often.) Anyway, some people see themselves in terms of layers and layers of complex gender expression. I do not see myself that way. If people entered that house and thought, "femme," it was on them. If they entered and thought "gay man," (I had roommates), that was also on them.

The music I like is favored by men, straight men over forty. It says nothing about my gender. It really doesn't. It says something about my geographical roots, my love of good writing, and my social class. But not a damned thing about my gender.

Gender does go deep for me. But it does not BEGIN to explain everything about me. People who explain so much about themselves in terms of the expression of their inner boy or girl -- it feels made up to me. But I don't know. I have no idea what their experience is. I have an acquaintance who is wiccan, and she hears the voices of gods and goddesses within her. Their voices and preferences shape her decisions. I do not doubt her experience, but it is as alien to me as understanding that my purchase of a bedspread is an expression of my gender. It might be for some folks. For me, it is not.

There are things about me that are feminine. I am a lot less feminine than some folks. But I have inclinations and mannerisms that make me clearly more feminine than not. But I sure do not try to understand most of my behavior in terms of gender. It feels false to me. It feels artificial. It feels like a construct placed on me. I do not experience that as liberating at all.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).

[BullDog]

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

[BullDog]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

[BullDog]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

I'm all in support of you expressing your thoughts and opinions like this, but I have to ask: How do you get away with it? I would be very reluctant to state any strong position myself, expecting immediate backlash and quick mod involvement.

Good for you, Julie. Though I don't agree with your opinions completely, I commend you for putting them out there and sticking to them.

[Play]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

When I read this post I understood it for what it truly was, a personal
experience. As a butch lesbian, I'm sorry you have gone through dealing
with that type of attitude. Please don't judge all by the actions of one,
some, or even many. We are all individuals. (As with any subset of the
population there are good and bad.)

The potential backlash one gets from posting their own opinion or experience
is one of the reasons I have avoided these discussions for so long. A frank
discussion with exchange of ideas, opinions, and experiences without
condemnation or judgment would be refreshing to me.

Also, it is damn near impossible to hear "tone" in a post here on the forums.
While my writing style is on the formal side. I am a goofy smartass who is
far more likely to make you laugh than evoke anger.

"Life and let live" "Variety is the spice of life." "It takes all kinds"....
(insert any other cliche here as long as it is accepting and inviting to
continue individual expression)

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Julie, this is so incredibly offensive, hateful, and judgmental it is not even worth responding to.

You did respond Kobi! Though under handed as it might be. Respond you did.

Offensive? Nah. - Just honest about my feelings.

Hateful? I don't hate lesbians. For god sake, I came out as one and celebrate that part of my history. I have just learned from online forums that dykes like me, don't really fit in with the Lesbian culture here, nor do many based upon what many have stated.

Judgmental? Ya, I'm tired of people telling people how to fuck, how to identify based on their fucking and what makes a butch BUTCH or femme FEMME. Not long ago in a far distant land, I read somewhere that femme's are bottoms.

Bulldog, I did not intend to imply that all Lesbians behave this way on this site. I am sorry if it felt like I was boxing all Lesbians together. My issue in the real world with Lesbians is how I have been treated (me) based on having nails or how I dress or the fact my partner is masculine. Or how many of my other friends have been excluded or judged based on their masculinity or how they identify.

And seriously, what is Lesbian sex anyway? I forget.

Play, thank you for recognizing immediately that I am typing behind a computer screen and you are not able to hear my tone.

I used to celebrate that I was a Femme Lesbian, until I was told over and over and over what that meant. Now, I am simply Femme, Dyke or Queer or all three of them wrapped into one. I also am comfortable with simply Gay.

And yes, these are my personal experiences and based on how I have seen others treated. Honestly Play, I could care less what you say about me (not you) at this point. I am so comfortable with how I live my life and love and make love and fuck and communicate. I think it becomes triggery for me, when I read that certain "subset's" of our culture are not welcome.

Imagine being the partner to a butch. You identify as a Femme Lesbian. You have been in this community for 20 years (example) and then all of a sudden, your beloved partner wants to transition. Not only is your partner shunned from the community, but you are now viewed as a heterosexual. This is hurtful and damaging. Who in the world nominated this Lesbian Task Force?

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Tapu, who knows. Perhaps because I did not make blanket statements, such as Femme = Bottom. <shrugs>

Julie

Julie, what you said IS a blanket statement--that's the point some here are trying to make to you. Medusa, among others.

And not to put too fine a point on it, when I made my egregious statement, I was talking purely from my experience--a point I attempted to clarify and I think Medusa got.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

That's some ugly shit.

[Julie]

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Because I speak my truth based on what I have seen or felt? I think it's really offensive as well to be placed in a box and told you are not welcome places or do not fit it.

Ya, that's some ugly shit.

Pot, kettle?

Seriously and constructively though, I think it would improve the overall situation if the same degree of "tamping down" on controversial opinions were applied across the board.

[Medusa]

Ok folks, we are getting reports about this thread.

Julie - It's ok to speak about your own experiences, just don't generalize. You were fine until you said "Lesbians judge how we...".

All - There are some great examples in this thread of people engaging respectfully with Julie on what they thought was problematic about what she said about Lesbians and I'd prefer that if you are having a problem with something someone said, you engage with that person respectfully rather than cyber-slapping them. It's not productive and does nothing to further the conversation.

On a personal note, it is difficult to moderate discussions where people are talking about things they have experienced and how they perceive other people or other groups of people. Sure, people like to go "Well, if you insert "Femme" or "Trans" into that discussion then you'd moderate!!" but it is not that black and white.
This is Butch/Femme/Trans space. It's women's space. It is not exclusively Lesbian space just as it is not exclusively Femme or Trans or Butch space. The intention for this space, however, stands as Butch, Femme, and Trans space and we have GOT to be able to discuss the nuances specific to our community reasonably and as healthy as possible.

We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.

The other thing that is frustrating is that people like Julie *who identify as a Lesbian* are being silenced from talking about their own community. I would be agog if I, as a Femme (who consequently identifies as a Lesbian as well), was being told by TPTB that I can't call it out when other Femmes marginalize me. Do we really want that in our community? Do we really want a lily-white, washed up for the masses version of history? Do we want sacred cows here?

Look, I'm not saying that Lesbians should be villified, or stereotyped, or generalized as "evil, humorless crustbuckets who slash and burn all things Butch, Femme, and Trans". That's bull and we all know it. We are all worthy of respect and I don't want the Lesbians in this community feeling targeted or disrespected just like I don't want the Butches, Femmes, Transfolks, and intersectionalized identities feeling disrespected.

With that said, can we all please agree that this is a valid discussion worthy of our best choices of words? Worthy of our best effort to speak from our own experience with specificity and in a way that honors this space and the discussion? And can we please follow some of the fine examples in this thread of debating with respect so that this discussion can continue without a bunch of acidity and unhealthy back and forth?

These discussions ("these" meaning any discussion that involves teasing apart gender and idnetity) always run the risk of offending one or multiple people. It's going to happen. We're human and our lenses are all different. Hopefully we can all commit to doing this with as much good will as possible so let's check our "stuff" at the door and work toward understanding one another. K?

Thanks,
Angie

[C0LLETTE]

"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.