only another butch would understand

Liam · 11-19-2009, 08:07 PM

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

Daywalker · 11-19-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

This is a beautiful piece of writing.

However, the final sentence you have added...is tragic.

And I sure as hell hope that before dismissing anyones
presence here as valid, that folks learn to inspect
their own words first and how hurtful
and divisive they really are.

evolveme · 11-19-2009, 08:37 PM

"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."

I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.

I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.

And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.

BullDog · 11-19-2009, 08:49 PM

People appear to be seriously confused about what I have said.
I have never said that butch femme space was all woman or female space nor have I advocated it.
I have never said male identified people should not be welcome and I too have close male id butch and trans friends, and consider male id people as part of my community as well.
I have never been afraid of being marginalized- as a female identified butch or anything else.
I have never been afraid to speak up about things that I felt were important and I am not going to stop speaking up wherever I happen to participate.

Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.

Peace to All.

P.S. Evolveme, I agree with you- Kumbabya is not the answer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be respectful of one another and wish for us all to get along peacefully, but the tough conversations need to be had in order to get anywhere.

I am severely frustrated because I have no idea why people are not understanding what I write. I am a professional writer- I fucking get paid for it. I write thousands of words every day and people understand what I write. Otherwise I wouldn't get paid for it. Actually Toughy and Greyson seemed to understand just fine.

Sorry if this is overly personal. I am severely frustrated.

bonne-maman · 11-19-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.

We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.

BullDog · 11-19-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.

Thank you for your post. I agree with all my heart. Peace to the young woman that you helped. And thank you for being there.

Daywalker · 11-19-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme

"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."

I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.

I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.

And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.

I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.

To Me

Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.

Unndunn · 11-20-2009, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.

To Me

Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.

I put the part that resonated the most to me in blue. To me there's a huge difference between doing the hard work and attacking others to make your own voice heard. I find myself on the sidelines more and more because I see some of the same people who claim to be "doing the work" and "having the difficult conversations" being the ones who make the conversations more difficult than they need to be. I can't respect anyone who doesn't care about all of us as individuals. I can't respect someone who thinks it's okay to attack and rip people apart just because they don't agree. I won't respect anyone who acts as if their "message" is more important than civility and community. I'm just getting too old and too tired to want to be around anyone that enjoys the act of arguing more than the resolution of differences and miscommunications.

Admin · 11-19-2009, 08:23 PM

I want to make it crystal clear that this space is not merely inclusive of male-identified people, but that we HONOR that path.

I have been watching this conversation evolve and want to interject something here.

It looks like there is some vocalizing of fear around being marginalized as a female-identified Butch. I get that. I understand that deep desire to be seen, to be honored, to be heard, to be not just visible in a space but to have a sturdy foundation. Female-identified Butches will ALWAYS have a foundation in Butch-Femme culture, an honored and valued one!

We need to remember that male-identified people and Trans men have BEEN in our shoes. They have walked these miles and the decision to transition does NOT erase years of lived history. It doesnt mean that they have some higher status in this community because they are now transitioned or male-identified, it just means they have a different experience. A valued and honored one!

The injection of testosterone or use of male pronouns doesnt cause a physiological change in the brain where knuckle-dragging sexism takes root. Most likely that behavior would already be rooted in the person doing it. Butches do it. Femmes do it. We ALL do it sometimes.

I think that we can certainly seek ways to be seen, ways to be comfortable. I think it is perfectly ok to say to a person, "Hey, can you please be mindful of how your presence here affects my own presence here"
And that goes in both directions! We ALL affect each other. Nobody here exists in a bubble - and who would want to?

This is a gentle reminder to all that this conversation is fucking important and that we might feel like throwing up our hands and giving up but that maybe our frustration is a call to stay the course.

We need to ALL be mindful to use language that is respectful and honoring of this space for which is was intended. This is YOUR home, so dont go putting up any ugly decorations.

Love to us all.

11-19-2009, 08:37 PM	#3
evolveme Member How Do You Identify?: honeysuckle venom Preferred Pronoun?: a pistol and a sugar cane Relationship Status: I promise to aid and abet Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in between poems where ceilings are floors and joe ghost floats achromatic toward day Posts: 514 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 229 Thanked 735 Times in 228 Posts Rep Power: 503698	"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth, it is simply a common struggle..." I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow. I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward. I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work. And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here. __________________ Class, race, sexuality, gender and all other categories by which we categorize and dismiss each other need to be excavated from the inside. - Dorothy Allison

11-19-2009, 08:07 PM	#1
Liam Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Guy Preferred Pronoun?: He, Him, His Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The Evergreen State Posts: 2,269 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 14,865 Thanked 6,875 Times in 1,861 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's. Tapestry It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women, a string labeled community with knots so obvious, yet the adjoining fiber elusive. Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership, silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing, it is a comfortable existence. Where are your voices sisters? How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away? A wise man once spoke of stones and blame, no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee. Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance, and righteously climb over the lives that you have discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy. Are you ignorant of your own mistakes? Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness? Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons? There is no hierarchy in the field of growth, it is simply a common struggle, success measured only by the individual, not the collective. Set your houses in order sisters— tend to your own housekeeping. Speak of yourself, not others. Divisions and factions evade the warp, the thread could be pulled, the weaving unraveled. © 1982 K. Berryman No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me. Liam

11-19-2009, 08:49 PM	#4
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,655 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	People appear to be seriously confused about what I have said. I have never said that butch femme space was all woman or female space nor have I advocated it. I have never said male identified people should not be welcome and I too have close male id butch and trans friends, and consider male id people as part of my community as well. I have never been afraid of being marginalized- as a female identified butch or anything else. I have never been afraid to speak up about things that I felt were important and I am not going to stop speaking up wherever I happen to participate. Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way. Peace to All. P.S. Evolveme, I agree with you- Kumbabya is not the answer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be respectful of one another and wish for us all to get along peacefully, but the tough conversations need to be had in order to get anywhere. I am severely frustrated because I have no idea why people are not understanding what I write. I am a professional writer- I fucking get paid for it. I write thousands of words every day and people understand what I write. Otherwise I wouldn't get paid for it. Actually Toughy and Greyson seemed to understand just fine. Sorry if this is overly personal. I am severely frustrated.

11-19-2009, 08:23 PM	#9
Admin Administrator How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She/Her Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The Planet Posts: 1,686 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 394 Thanked 5,625 Times in 1,013 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I want to make it crystal clear that this space is not merely inclusive of male-identified people, but that we HONOR that path. I have been watching this conversation evolve and want to interject something here. It looks like there is some vocalizing of fear around being marginalized as a female-identified Butch. I get that. I understand that deep desire to be seen, to be honored, to be heard, to be not just visible in a space but to have a sturdy foundation. Female-identified Butches will ALWAYS have a foundation in Butch-Femme culture, an honored and valued one! We need to remember that male-identified people and Trans men have BEEN in our shoes. They have walked these miles and the decision to transition does NOT erase years of lived history. It doesnt mean that they have some higher status in this community because they are now transitioned or male-identified, it just means they have a different experience. A valued and honored one! The injection of testosterone or use of male pronouns doesnt cause a physiological change in the brain where knuckle-dragging sexism takes root. Most likely that behavior would already be rooted in the person doing it. Butches do it. Femmes do it. We ALL do it sometimes. I think that we can certainly seek ways to be seen, ways to be comfortable. I think it is perfectly ok to say to a person, "Hey, can you please be mindful of how your presence here affects my own presence here" And that goes in both directions! We ALL affect each other. Nobody here exists in a bubble - and who would want to? This is a gentle reminder to all that this conversation is fucking important and that we might feel like throwing up our hands and giving up but that maybe our frustration is a call to stay the course. We need to ALL be mindful to use language that is respectful and honoring of this space for which is was intended. This is YOUR home, so dont go putting up any ugly decorations. Love to us all.