It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Dean Thoreau]

apoco...my
example of korea was simply in reference to how easily i would be spoted in korea as a foreigner.................... I am 6'2" and weigh 320 pounds...and i have blue eyes!!!

Not everything is predicated on race....
I am sorry due to geography a larger number of illegal hispanic immagrants reside in arizona then in Schenectedy NY. I do beleive it has more to dow ith georgraphy than with race

Additionally,
Likme I said there are immigration laws, do I want the borders sealed up,,no..however, leaving one country in poverty to enter another one in slavery is not good for anyone.
especially the humans involved. it hurts the individual it hurts the country left and the country entered.

I do not know what the solution is, I do know however if the Immigration service spent more time, enforcing the working documents laws, and less time playing masked crusaders at the borders...there would be less problems.

THE USA is a "super power" well was,,,personally I think people immigrating here are foolish, what does the USA produce domestically that is so important to human survival?
Majority of the food comes from outside the USa
the CORN BELT furnishes the USA with high processed high caloric non nutritious muck and tons of Beef for our burgers....and usa farmers are starving while con-agra makes more $$ then we have good ol USA Tobacco and good ol USA Alcoholic beverages.....most everything else is imported

today for breakfast i had: a banana from peru, blueberries from chile, an apple from..somewhere....a tomato from israel spring mix salad greens from mexico, salmon from the carribean farms, drank my fiji water, and will get all cozy in my egyptian cotton sheets, while i watch my tv made in china, work on my laptop that was made in japan, and drink a small sip of ice wine from canada.

Right now a bunch of yahoos are upset that illegal immigrants are ruining the finances of "real americans" truth is if it were not for the illegal americans taking jobs that the "real americans" did not want until the financial crises.....country would have gone to hell in a handbasket a whole lot sooner.

solution:
change the laws
open the borders in both directions....get an agreement with countries for a open exchange program....and have a ball.
Let everyone become legal,,let everyone become an american citizen,,eve4ryone pays taxes....non american citizens and citizens alike..of course this will require a national identification system,,,and all the liberals and conservatives and libertarians alike will be screaming about privacy issues...

cant satisfy everyone ever.....

peace

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

apoco...my
example of korea was simply in reference to how easily i would be spoted in korea as a foreigner.................... I am 6'2" and weigh 320 pounds...and i have blue eyes!!!

That still doesn't address the core issue, Dean. How do you tell an American citizen whose ancestors were in what is now Arizona when your ancestors were still eking out a living in Northern Europe and dodging the European lion from someone who crossed the border last week? Because, quite honestly, without doing genetic testing I wouldn't be able to do it to be perfectly honest. I certainly couldn't do it by sight. (And even genetic testing would only be mostly reliable because there's so much cross fertilization across the border and the border hasn't been there long enough for the two populations to have diverged significantly. 150 years in human genetics is hardly any time at all!)

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

That still doesn't address the core issue, Dean. How do you tell an American citizen whose ancestors were in what is now Arizona when your ancestors were still eking out a living in Northern Europe and dodging the European lion from someone who crossed the border last week? Because, quite honestly, without doing genetic testing I wouldn't be able to do it to be perfectly honest. I certainly couldn't do it by sight. (And even genetic testing would only be mostly reliable because there's so much cross fertilization across the border and the border hasn't been there long enough for the two populations to have diverged significantly. 150 years in human genetics is hardly any time at all!)

Cheers
Aj

Back to Nazi Germany of we start doing genetic testing.

[NJFemmie]

I keep seeing "taking jobs Americans do not want".
If there were no "illegal" immigrants to take these jobs - do you think wages would finally be livable?

I'm curious to see the answers.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I keep seeing "taking jobs Americans do not want".
If there were no "illegal" immigrants to take these jobs - do you think wages would finally be livable?

I'm curious to see the answers.

Almost certainly yes.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I keep seeing "taking jobs Americans do not want".
If there were no "illegal" immigrants to take these jobs - do you think wages would finally be livable?

I'm curious to see the answers.

One word....YES!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I keep seeing "taking jobs Americans do not want".
If there were no "illegal" immigrants to take these jobs - do you think wages would finally be livable?

I'm curious to see the answers.

No, I do not.

Capitalism is based on someone working for below a livable wage.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Almost certainly yes.

Originally Posted by Corkey

One word....YES!

Maybe I am not seeing this right beacsue I usualy agree with you both.

Would you explain how this would work?

Are you saying if we made all the people who are here and not citizens into citizens then no one would work for less than a livable wage?

Ir that of we allowed no immigration and kicked out everyone who does not have papers then we would all make a livable wage?

How would this work?

Would we still be Capitalist then?

[MsDemeanor]

Define "livable wage", please. It's certainly not minimum wage.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Maybe I am not seeing this right beacsue I usualy agree with you both.

Would you explain how this would work?

Are you saying if we made all the people who are here and not citizens into citizens then no one would work for less than a livable wage?

Ir that of we allowed no immigration and kicked out everyone who does not have papers then we would all make a livable wage?

How would this work?

Would we still be Capitalist then?

Actually, here's how I see this playing out;

For those jobs that are *not* portable--i.e. those requiring physical presence--the presence of labor willing to work at below-market-rate wages AND who are vulnerable to exploitation because they are afraid of approaching the legal system puts downward pressure on wages in those fields. So if we made it unprofitable for companies to hire undocumented workers (and that would be my preferred approach, get at the problem from the demand side, not the supply side) then that would do two things.

1) It would put upward pressure on the job market. The work would still need to be done, someone would have to do it, so now there would either be a guest-worker program (which we could stipulate *requires* employers to play by Federal and state labor laws) or employers would hire US citizens to do the job.

2) It would eliminate the incentive to get into the US by hook or by crook. Right now, if you are from a border area where there is little to no work and you can, by going north a couple of hundred miles, find work where you would make, in a week, more than you could have made in a month back home you have a pretty powerful incentive to get into the country up north. There would *still* be migration but now there would be no real good reason to route around the immigration process since there's no work here.

(The idea that people come to the United States to live fat and happy upon the endless bounty that is our paltry social safety net is risible.)

The reason why employers *pay* a below-market wage (and here I mean livable) is because they can get away with it. I'm going to use a tale of two lesbians jobs to illustrate my point.

I work for a mid-sized software company. My wife works for a mid-sized cell phone company catering to older people (a competitor of Jitterbug). We are paid fairly well, our benefits are very good and we have a great deal of flexibility--it is nothing for me to say, for instance, that I'm going to finish up the afternoon at home, leave at lunch and then telecommute. When we have a snowpocalypse (where we get snow then ice then snow and then more ice) Portland shuts down. With my company, we just telecommute until the roads clear. My wife has to go in. My wife is seriously underpaid and has to operate under a truly odious set of rules violation of any of which could get one fired very quickly. There ARE things that could get us walked out the door, but handing Tylenol to a co-worker with a headache isn't one of them! Now, we both answer the phone for a living. The difference is that my job requires a pretty diverse and intense skill-set while my wife's job requires the ability to have a good phone manner, the ability to write grammatical sentences and sort of generalized customer service skills.

By any objective measure my wife and her co-workers are abused at work. They are treated, at best, like unruly children and her bosses behave in a way that almost says "we DARE you to quit". They know that they can pull someone off the street and train them to their standards and have them on the phones in a week. My employer dare NOT treat us that way. It is in their best interests to keep us happy. Why? Because on any one of our product groups it takes *at least* six months before you're up to speed and a year before you are truly crossing the threshold of self-reliance (meaning that you can solve most of your user-issues on your own except for the weird stuff). It takes two years before you can reasonably say that you can handle all but the weirdest problems on your own. So if we all walked out the door, they would be seriously hurt for at least six months and more likely two or more years. Since support contracts on *ONE* product alone (the product I support) accounts for 40% of company revenue (those aren't new sales, that's just companies buying support on software they already own) they have a serious incentive NOT to make us miserable lest we leave.

So the tighter the pool of labor is, the better it is for workers. The tighter the pool of jobs, the worse it is for workers.

(cont)

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

apoco...my
example of korea was simply in reference to how easily i would be spoted in korea as a foreigner.................... I am 6'2" and weigh 320 pounds...and i have blue eyes!!!

Not everything is predicated on race....
I am sorry due to geography a larger number of illegal hispanic immagrants reside in arizona then in Schenectedy NY. I do beleive it has more to dow ith georgraphy than with race

Additionally,
Likme I said there are immigration laws, do I want the borders sealed up,,no..however, leaving one country in poverty to enter another one in slavery is not good for anyone.
especially the humans involved. it hurts the individual it hurts the country left and the country entered.

I do not know what the solution is, I do know however if the Immigration service spent more time, enforcing the working documents laws, and less time playing masked crusaders at the borders...there would be less problems.

THE USA is a "super power" well was,,,personally I think people immigrating here are foolish, what does the USA produce domestically that is so important to human survival?
Majority of the food comes from outside the USa
the CORN BELT furnishes the USA with high processed high caloric non nutritious muck and tons of Beef for our burgers....and usa farmers are starving while con-agra makes more $$ then we have good ol USA Tobacco and good ol USA Alcoholic beverages.....most everything else is imported

today for breakfast i had: a banana from peru, blueberries from chile, an apple from..somewhere....a tomato from israel spring mix salad greens from mexico, salmon from the carribean farms, drank my fiji water, and will get all cozy in my egyptian cotton sheets, while i watch my tv made in china, work on my laptop that was made in japan, and drink a small sip of ice wine from canada.

Right now a bunch of yahoos are upset that illegal immigrants are ruining the finances of "real americans" truth is if it were not for the illegal americans taking jobs that the "real americans" did not want until the financial crises.....country would have gone to hell in a handbasket a whole lot sooner.

solution:
change the laws
open the borders in both directions....get an agreement with countries for a open exchange program....and have a ball.
Let everyone become legal,,let everyone become an american citizen,,eve4ryone pays taxes....non american citizens and citizens alike..of course this will require a national identification system,,,and all the liberals and conservatives and libertarians alike will be screaming about privacy issues...

cant satisfy everyone ever.....

peace

OK OK, now it is making sense, but just you, not the other mentions of Korea and East Germany and places where people with accents ask for "papers".

Totally agree we can't satisfy everyone.

Totally agree if someone wants to be here make them a citizen! and no, I don't mean terrorists.

Thank you

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

Not everything is predicated on race....
I am sorry due to geography a larger number of illegal hispanic immagrants reside in arizona then in Schenectedy NY. I do beleive it has more to dow ith georgraphy than with race

Here's the thing, Dean. Given this country's history (see my earlier post) why on Earth should ANY person of color in this nation believe that this *isn't* about race? I'll tell you this; if I were a Japanese American whose parents or grandparents were born in an internment camp, I'd have one eye on the exits. If I were a Japanese American who had *been* in an internment camp, I'd *definitely* be eying the exits! Because I would start thinking, "seems to me I've heard these notes before..." Now, it may turn out that the notes just *sound* like that same old song from back in the day but are actually totally different music once the song really gets going. The problem is, if it IS that golden oldie by the time you figure it out, it's too late.

Perhaps this isn't about race (that's within the realm of possibility) but given our history it is not unreasonable for non-white people to suspect that it *is* about race. Nothing at all unreasonable about that.

Here's the thing. This law seems innocuous, right? The other directive that has come down from the Arizona Department of Education that stipulates:

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

Full article link

Also seems innocuous enough. Both can make a lot of sense to people if they want it to. Here's the thing, there's a set of historical laws, laws from another country to be certain but of historical import never-the-less, that taken on their face ALSO seemed innocuous. Taken in isolation, no particular provision of the Nuremberg Laws or any of the other laws that were passed *seem* so horrible. The thing is to a student of history these things look more and more disturbing taken as a package.

So today, you can be stopped for 'breathing while Hispanic'. Tomorrow you can lose your job for "teaching with an accent". The day after that the 14th Amendment is repealed (yes, there are people talking about repealing or amending the 14th so that it no longer covers everyone born in this country). Then a week later you can lose your job as a teacher for 'teaching while Hispanic'. And sometime down the road, you can be arrested for BEING Hispanic.

Is that where we are heading? Only time and history will tell. The thing is, if a time traveler went back to Berlin circa 1934 with a copy of Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and, perhaps, Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners" and tried to warn people, I'm willing to bet that you would barely be able to find 1 German in 1000 (including German Jews) who would have thought that the books were anything more than elaborate fictions done in very poor taste.

Again, I'm not saying America circa 2010 is Germany circa 1933. I AM saying that there is cause for concern. These things rarely happen all at once. They take a path. That path is well worn and the trail is clear for anyone willing to read history without fear but with concern. Step one is always find a scapegoat. Step two is begin to isolate that group from the population--first by laws and sanction, only later comes the physical isolation.

Cheers
Aj

[Heart]

And then there is the banning of ethnic studies... make no mistake - this is about race.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_558731.html

[MsDemeanor]

Arizona's next motto "All White, All Republican".

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Arizona's next motto "All White, All Republican".

Except for the people who will lose their jobs becasue of the boycott and not be able to afford to leave.

These will likely be people who make minumum wage.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Except for the people who will lose their jobs becasue of the boycott and not be able to afford to leave.

These will likely be people who make minumum wage.

True. That's the frustrating part of the boycott, it hurts so many people. Legislators who actually had the best interest of their constituents at heart would see how badly this is going to hurt everyone and be working this weekend on new language to reverse the bill. The AZ legislators have instead taken all of the feedback as an excuse to crank out even more racist bills. Hence my thought for the next motto. Keep in mind that I tend to think of a motto as something that an entity strives or envisions itself to be.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

True. That's the frustrating part of the boycott, it hurts so many people. Legislators who actually had the best interest of their constituents at heart would see how badly this is going to hurt everyone and be working this weekend on new language to reverse the bill. The AZ legislators have instead taken all of the feedback as an excuse to crank out even more racist bills. Hence my thought for the next motto. Keep in mind that I tend to think of a motto as something that an entity strives or envisions itself to be.

Yeah, I agree.

It's crazy. This Governor was not elected by the people and says God is telling her to do these things.

Maybe the Legislators don't quite know what to do with that, except try to save their political careers.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

Not everything is predicated on race....
I am sorry due to geography a larger number of illegal hispanic immagrants reside in arizona then in Schenectedy NY. I do beleive it has more to do with georgraphy than with race

If it's about geography, then they've moved Maryland since the last time I looked at a map. Ohio, too.

State Delegate Pat McDonough, a Republican from Maryland, wants his state to pass a version of Arizona's law for the same reason, ABC2 News in Baltimore reports.
"When people come across that border, they're not going to go to Arizona anymore. They're coming here," McDonough said. linkyloo

"that border"? Seriously?