Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by HerDaddy

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

HerDaddy,

First off, my experience of/with Corkey is that he is MORE than capable of thinking for himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chiming in on these boards that you agree with other posters.

Secondly, neither Mr. Bent nor Corkey are "she butches"; and I find it completely rude and disrespectful that you would make such a statement. We offer a community of support here, and those types of remarks are not supportive at all.

Thinker (posting as a member, no moderator)

[HerDaddy]

Originally Posted by Thinker

HerDaddy,

First off, my experience of/with Corkey is that he is MORE than capable of thinking for himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chiming in on these boards that you agree with other posters.

Secondly, neither Mr. Bent nor Corkey are "she butches"; and I find it completely rude and disrespectful that you would make such a statement. We offer a community of support here, and those types of remarks are not supportive at all.

Thinker (posting as a member, no moderator)

I'm sorry you feel that others are not allowed to have opinions.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by HerDaddy

I'm sorry you feel that others are not allowed to have opinions.

You can have all the opinions you want. I'm sorry it's problematic to *you* that someone is going to call you out on your opinions.

And that *is* going to be what happens.

It's not okay to come into these threads and be shitty to people. When it's done, it gets called out.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by HerDaddy

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

You wouldn't know anything about it. Why don't you step off jerk.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by HerDaddy

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

HerDaddy, claiming you are someone's daddy doesn't make you one either, but I'm not going to challenge your personal perception - and possibly misguided notion - that you are one. It's clear you should have read a lot more, and all over these forums, before putting fingers to keyboard. You do not get to call me, or any other member who does not so identify, a "she butch." I'm not even sure what that is.

I'd be angry at your offensive posts here, but I find anger is an emotion wasted on the ignorant, instead I'll simply hope that you continue to read and educate yourself before continuing to insult members of this website.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

I agree with you very much in terms of what for me is an over simplification of facts and issues concerning transmen and male privilege. It is complicated and it bothers me that generalizations are made about this whole area.

And I also need to point out that many female or male identified butches are subjected to the same kinds of threats and violence (I certainly have been beat up- and yes, raped and I continue to watch where I go). Femmes are as well. We queers in general are not exactly welcome by all.

I wish we all could look at these variables without lumping each other into boxes. My transmen friends all have varying insights into their experiences with male privilege- they are individuals with varying backgrounds. And my son (non-trans) has a whole different take on things as a feminist male in US society. Transwomen I know can also be a good resource for looking at the opposite effect of losing this privilege.

For me, it all comes down to personal consciousness-

[Thinker]

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

[hpychick]

Thinker,

It happens to each of us from time to time. I try to remember, "do no harm" as philosophy I live by.

Anger is important where injustice and ignorance are present.

I hope it's all right that I stepped in here. I want you all to know that my support is yours and inasmuch as I can, I have your back, too.

Sunny

Originally Posted by Thinker

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Hey all,

We have banned this screen name. This is a troll hiding behind a proxy and is here to create drama. So lets just step over this one rather than giving this idiot any more screen time.

Thanks for reporting this!

Jackhammer

ARGH! But, you caught it and thank you!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

Mike I agree with this. I think it is helpful to hear the complexities of what transmen go through to understand better and to acknowledge your struggles.

However, I also haven't seen Martina or anyone else who has brought up male privilege saying transmen have the same amount of privilege as a male who isn't trans either. From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

When women experience sexism from men it feels exactly the same whether they are transmen or not- or at least it does to many. When transmen talk down at me on this forum (not all do), it feels exactly the same as if a man out on the street who isn't trans does. So we have to experience sexism and the effects of male privilege over and over- and from many womens experience it doesn't feel any different whether someone is trans or not.

Male privilege can indeed be situational and vary depending on race, class, being trans or not and other factors. I don't see where anyone has denied that.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

From my perspective, many people have come here (and gone into other discussions) and attempted to engage in challenging conversations that they do not see eye-to-eye on and, quite possibly, will always disagree. Those are hard conversations with opposing viewpoints; they're not "taking people to task". Again, that's my perspective on it.

And, to me, it feels frustrating and silencing when people who do not want to be challenged say that the opposing view being presented is silencing. Personally, and it's not just in this thread, we are watering down the "silencing" thing to where we won't be able to see it or really know what it means when it really *does* happen. And, yes, I do know it happens.

Actually, I think if I come into a discussion and share *my* experience from *my* *me* space and someone comes in and tells me that my post is silencing, then I feel like *they* are trying to silence me.

So again... It's a catch 22.

Bulldog, it's sad to me but it has become very clear to me over the past few months that you and I see these things VERY differently. I don't recall that it was ever that way some years back.

But things to do change. I know that a lot about my life has changed in the past two years, and I also know that my heart, soul, and spirit have not......nor has my mind. Maybe it's the physical changes in me that you have come to object to; I don't know. But I'm still the same person, and I still stand for the same things I always have.

What I have noticed here is that when someone responds to you (or Martina or whomever) with an opposing position, you call foul. *That*, to me, is frustrating. How are we supposed to have a hard conversation about this stuff? I don't feel we can.

So if you feel those types of replies are "silencing" then you should probably report that......all of them.

[BullDog]

Well Thinker, it has felt silencing to me. Perhaps the topic can be discussed in another thread at another time. I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

Edit: I don't like the insinuation about me objecting to your physical changes. I don't object to anyone's physical changes. That is his or her personal decision.

[T D]

I can't say that I've experienced this male privilege yet as people are still waffling between she/he with me. It's so odd, I can go into one store and be called he or sir, then turn right around and go into a different store and be called she or ma'am. Now that I'm letting a little facial hair grow this will most likely change though.

It should be very interesting (to say the least) to experience the world differently from what I've been experiencing it for the past nearly 60 years. Since I feel like the same person I've always felt like I forget (for the most part) that how others experience me may change my privilege and/or position in the world at large. I personally don't think that this is going to be an easy adjustment, and I'm mostly stunned at how so many people think that my decision to start using "T" was easy and is about wanting privilege or something. This whole concept is completely foreign to me.

I really don't believe that anyone ever knows exactly what another person experiences internally. And what I find fascinating as all get out is how people will "speculate" on what something is "about" for others without even checking in with those others.

Just a few of my thoughts at the moment

[nycfem]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

[Corkey]

Well, call me stunned. Thanks to Jack, Thinker, EZ Mr Bent WB and the rest who stood up to ignorance. Good thing I slept in, and had to shovel snow.
Back to the point.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

Also, gender identity politics is an offshoot of Second Wave feminism.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

.

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

Yes, exactly Corkey. I agree.