Men with boobs.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Heart

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

Or you could apologise. Just a thought.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

Personally, this is offensive to me. I am tired of having to defend the fact that I love my breasts! And they are an integral, important part of my butch body. As I have stated before, if faced with breast cancer and needing mastectomies, I would do everything to assure that I could have reconstruction afterwards. And it would be very sad for me to lose the erotic sensations my breasts give me sexually. They represent to me the essence of being a masculine woman with all of female and male combinations I possess along with my vagina. Both are essential erogenous zones for me. Both define a part of my whole. I will not hide either.

Butches differ concerning their breasts. I support all butches personal feelings about their breasts. However, I want the same respect for my feelings in return and am sick of this devaluation of female-masculinity as a butch. As sick of it as I was when as a heterosexual woman, my breasts were viewed as nothing more than play things for men that they fixated on.

LOL.... have to say that I love the very different manner in which a femme lover views my breasts. It is not even close to what I experienced as a heterosexual.

I am not a taller man with boobs! I am a woman that celebrates my meshing of male and female physical features and appreciates those that find me desirable just as I am. I do not fit into the traditional gender binary and refuse to default to male. Many do and that is their prerogative and I will always support their doing so. But, please, do not put me in the same category as it is disrespectful to me as well as to those that are trans and we all have struggles in this binary fixated world!

[Nat]

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Nat

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

I actually LOVE the idea of writing letters! (and getting her to join the site would be great too!)

Here is her fansite: http://www.cynthianixon.net/


and Im looking for more.


Incidentally, Here is a link to an article where someone *PRAISES* Cynthia Nixon for the "man with boobs" quote.
http://www.metrowny.com/blogs/archiv...75b0xw00d.html
Perhaps she needs a letter too

[Nat]

I looked at the site and didn't see an email address. Did you?

she also has a facebook

Letter-writing it is then?

[Jack]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

I am greatly apreciative of this post. Thank you .

[Toughy]

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

I'm not anyone's husband ever. I'm not even a huzbutch. When I was married (to a woman for 16 years) she was my wife and I was her wife if we used those kind of terms.

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me. You had best be calling Me Syr when I am powered up in full Top/Dom mode and you are My bottom/sub. Daddy....not so much and usually only in jest. My kinky Top self is pretty male id'd.....not much in touch with the woman parts of me. It's male but it's a different kind of male.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>. Certainly within the kink community any gender can claim Sir/Syr and Daddy or Mommy or Ma'am. And then we can be ponies or doggies or cats and trainers and handlers or we can be littles and those who take care of the littles.

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

edited to add:....darlin I can have it as many ways as I want it.......laughin....and I don't see me hating male pronouns for butch default and being called Syr when I get out my single-tail as having it both ways.......they are not the same thing at all..........

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Nat

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

[Toughy]

by Heart
My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

...........word.............

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm not anyone's husband ever. I'm not even a huzbutch. When I was married (to a woman for 16 years) she was my wife and I was her wife if we used those kind of terms.

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me. You had best be calling Me Syr when I am powered up in full Top/Dom mode and you are My bottom/sub. Daddy....not so much and usually only in jest. My kinky Top self is pretty male id'd.....not much in touch with the woman parts of me. It's male but it's a different kind of male.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>. Certainly within the kink community any gender can claim Sir/Syr and Daddy or Mommy or Ma'am. And then we can be ponies or doggies or cats and trainers and handlers or we can be littles and those who take care of the littles.

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

edited to add:....darlin I can have it as many ways as I want it.......laughin....and I don't see me hating male pronouns for butch default and being called Syr when I get out my single-tail as having it both ways.......they are not the same thing at all..........

*waves*

Why yes.. I am Daddy

Sir

Master

All very masculine, I even have a boy...

No one calls me a man with boobs though

I feel cheated...

[PapaC]

... is how easily and once again, a description of a masculine woman or an 'explanation' of who she is, is reduced down to the lowest common denominator:

her boobs
her tits
her tatas
her melons
her mammories
her rack
her dairy queen
her knockers
her cans
her jiggily jugs (ok I added the jiggily for some fun)

... mention a women's boobs, and everyone's all "OH! ok, now I get it"

reduced.

I recently saw LA Story so this is fresh in my head:

"I could not handle being a woman, I would stay home all day and play with my breasts." - Steve Martin


I'm fucking tired of US being reduced down or reducing ourselves down to body parts.

<shaking head>

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart - I understand and agree with the bolded part and I applaud your efforts in this thread.

I think what's going on in this thread is complex and interesting.

I think bringing CN into this has brought up a lot of other issues and values that many of us differ on. I don't even know where I would personally begin untangling it, and I think it's likely that you would find it frustrating if I tried.

I do think that you are thinking on sort of a double-meta level, and when you pulled a real world example, you got a lot of different reactions because we all value different things and we are all at different points in the conversation, in our identities, in our experiences, etc.

I'm sorry you're frustrated.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by PapaC

... is how easily and once again, a description of a masculine woman or an 'explanation' of who she is, is reduced down to the lowest common denominator:

her boobs
her tits
her tatas
her melons
her mammories
her rack
her dairy queen
her knockers
her cans
her jiggily jugs (ok I added the jiggily for some fun)

... mention a women's boobs, and everyone's all "OH! ok, now I get it"

reduced.

I recently saw LA Story so this is fresh in my head:

"I could not handle being a woman, I would stay home all day and play with my breasts." - Steve Martin


I'm fucking tired of US being reduced down or reducing ourselves down to body parts.

<shaking head>

This part got to me too - defining one's partner by their breasts just really bothers me. I would find it extremely odious if my partner's definition of me included "boobs." As a person who is not a butch, that part cut me deeper.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Heart

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he.

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

On which side? I mean...if you are going to tell me what I should see something as, maybe you could be a bit more forthcoming with the rules?

[BullDog]

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I'm really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new- and no I'm not talking about Cynthia Nixon.

Roger. Over and Out.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by BullDog

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new.

Roger. Over and Out.

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't.
Metro

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't.
Metro

Not picky at all. However, that started with "I feel as if" so I did preface that with my own feelings of needing to feel. HA! Convoluted enough?

We can probably just chalk that up to my inherent feelings of guilt for being responsible for everything including WW's I and II. It's a joke in certain groups I hang out in.