"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

SuperFemme · 11-22-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Selenay · 11-22-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bit

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me

but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

SuperFemme · 11-22-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me

but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

I wonder how much of that is cultural? As many of us are parenting I wonder how much our kids soak up. I have a 16 year old Femme who is in the habit of stuffing everyone into a butch/femme box because her role models are as such. It seems we have passed this world view on to her. Which is fine. Until it's not.

Lynn · 11-22-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me

but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

Apocalipstic · 11-22-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

And if they live un non-urban settings or non-coastal settings.

Students at Walter State in East Tennessee are likely to have a different experience than universities in NYC or San Francisco.

Still, I have to say that Butch and Femme as IDs have only been popular for maybe 3 years since the 70's.

Has that detered me? Nah.

I still love BullDykes.

and

Chocolate

Darth Denkay · 11-22-2009, 05:58 PM

Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words...

Arwen · 11-22-2009, 06:34 PM

This is a fascinating discussion.

For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called.

I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is.

Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced."

For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian.

I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"?

Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined?

Diva · 11-22-2009, 07:08 PM

As SF has said early on, I just want to add my and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation.

I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You.

If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve )in today's Youth Culture.

I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok.

BullDog · 11-22-2009, 07:12 PM

I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?

Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.

11-22-2009, 05:58 PM	#6
Darth Denkay Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I'm good with whatever Relationship Status: in love and loved Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tennessee (Memphis, from Chattanooga) Posts: 315 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 456 Thanked 463 Times in 150 Posts Rep Power: 891935	Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words... __________________ Darth

11-22-2009, 06:34 PM	#7
Arwen Joy Seeker How Do You Identify?: Smartly-Flavored Preferred Pronoun?: Goddess Relationship Status: Mrs. Syzygy 1/9/14 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Joyville, NM (aka Land of Enchantment) Posts: 10,140 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,636 Thanked 28,119 Times in 6,414 Posts Rep Power: 21474862	This is a fascinating discussion. For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called. I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is. Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced." For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian. I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"? Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined? __________________ I wrote a book, y'all! *FREE* Tarotscopes Seek Joy, y'all. Eschew hate. 9Words: A Poetry Challenge \| Do you like me?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-22-2009, 07:08 PM	#8
Diva Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Diva Preferred Pronoun?: Diva Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chez Diva Posts: 11,879 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,263 Thanked 17,174 Times in 5,239 Posts Rep Power: 0	As SF has said early on, I just want to add my and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation. I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You. If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve )in today's Youth Culture. I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok.

11-22-2009, 07:12 PM	#9
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,660 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general? Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.