Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Jess]

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by evolveme

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.

I quibbled with myself over the word "allow," and should have changed it. I didn't intend it in the way that you interpreted, I think. I wanted to speak to "butch to my femme" and I wasn't alone in that. I also spoke to you privately and publicly about my fond feelings for your devotional post.

I'm not sure if you're saying you feel silenced by me. If you are, I'm going to have to ask that you reconsider my intentions, which were only to highlight the ways we might be unconsciously subsumed and dismissed. Beyond that, it is contrary to the purpose of this thread for me to host your feelings.

[Linus]

e, as I read your response to Ben-Hur I was thinking of my wife, K, and how she has evolved in her definition of femme. I have found that it evolves over time as she does and she redefines it again and again in her own terms. She has many roles (i.e., student, wife, partner, friend, lover, social worker-to-be, daughter, sister) and desires (mostly related to wanting to be a mom and license social worker as well as to have me permanently around her) but in her core, from my POV, there remains that femme that comes through -- both in the superficial visible and the deep inner being.

I wanted to find a way to define this and so I did my usual Google search. This time I entered in "define femme" and hit upon the nefarious Wikipedia's (yes, yes, I'm the biggest advocate of staying away from there but I got distracted and.. oh! Shiny!) definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femme and was surprised. Lots of mention of what a butch is but very little mention of what a femme is (in fact, unless my old eyes are failing me I can't find a true definition in there other than the fact that the term is a derivative of the french term for woman). HUH? A woman's woman? Maybe that's it.

She is what a woman strives to be: strong in her own right and knows when to let her guard down. I'd almost say that my aunts and grandmother fit into this except they miss that one last key point: they are straight. Part of what makes a femme a "woman's woman" is that she sees love in others that society turns their back on. She is, to me, stronger than narrowness of society.

My brain has more to add, if it's ok, but I cannot find the words. It'll come, I'm sure. (not like I'm known for brevity )

[blush]

Originally Posted by evolveme

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Gawd, I want to needlepoint your last sentence on a pillow.

And I've been thinking a lot about what you've said about roles.

And that got me thinking about my child. If I were to ask her to describe me without referencing the fact that I am her mother, would she be able to do it to my satisfaction?

No.

If I were to ask a friend to describe me without referencing my role or my contribution to their life as a friend, would they be able to do it to my satisfaction?

Probably not.

Your post resonated with me, e, but I don't know why. SyrJess's post resonated with me, but I don't know why.

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by blush

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

It may be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible.

I want them to understand why it is so important.

[Diva]

I would HOPE that ANYone in a relationship, would be able to describe their partner's heart FIRST.

This ~ granted ~ is only MY opinion. But if someone tells me they have fallen in love with me because I'm a femme....or a woman.....or Irish.....or a Mom.....or whatEVER OTHER than who I am in my heart, I would question it. And of course, it would be up to ME to speak my heart....and up to THEM to listen and hear my heartbeat.

Geez, I don't feel I'm choosing the right words here, so please forgive me for my inadequacies.....

That is not to say that I don't have the heart of a woman....or a femme...etc.....

My heart is full of who I am.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.

Totally get what you're saying...

I think I'm being a tad more specific and asking is it possible for our masculine counterparts to describe us adequately without referencing the role we hold in their life.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.

spoken language is so damn limiting, isn't it? i find myself flailing for ways to adequately express the damn chaos in my damn mind. dammit.

i just finished rereading one of my fave science fiction books (octavia butler) about a species (wholly peaceful, thank the stars) that could link in to the nervous system of others and understand every damn thing without having to say a damn word. i don't know if i'd love it or hate it but i damn sure wouldn't mind trying it for a day.

(any guesses about my word of the day?)

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Totally get what you're saying...

I think I'm being a tad more specific and asking is it possible for our masculine counterparts to describe us adequately without referencing the role we hold in their life.

I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

spoken language is so damn limiting, isn't it? i find myself flailing for ways to adequately express the damn chaos in my damn mind. dammit.

i just finished rereading one of my fave science fiction books (octavia butler) about a species (wholly peaceful, thank the stars) that could link in to the nervous system of others and understand every damn thing without having to say a damn word. i don't know if i'd love it or hate it but i damn sure wouldn't mind trying it for a day.

(any guesses about my word of the day?)

Chaos? hee. I have heard of octavia Butler but have not read her yet. I think I could describe another person without mentioning their roles in my life but I'm not sure.

I thought about doing this for my mama--and failed. Everything for me came back to the role she was in my life.

A harder task, I think, than I initially thought. I'm going to keep working on it for my own peace of mind.

Is it easier to describe someone not in our lives so intimately? Of course it is. I hope some of us are up to this task. An intriguing exercise to see how ... and who we are.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

Originally Posted by evolveme

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

day-um!

[wolfwalker]

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Autonomy???????? Do any of you know Jess and Christie?

I do and Jess loves her from here to the next universe and she, jess. Jess doesn't to give her autonomy. She is a grown ass woman and fully ready willing and able to provide her own autonomy. If anyone even thought about trying to take that away. I will gladly call 911 for ya. or send flowers LOLOLOL



wolfwalker

[apretty]

this makes sense to me:

Originally Posted by evolveme

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

lord i hope so! (and i really think so) ...but we can't do this (define us/others) while identifying ourselves dependent on anything/one else.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by evolveme

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Jess

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

Jess, I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it.

I also appreciate that you chose to keep looking at this and to reconsider how it was intended. It can be really difficult for people to understand feminine women (especially) beyond their roles, but I believe it is so important.

I also believe it is of primary importance for each of us to be able to define ourselves beyond/external to our roles/relationships. And here again, I am speaking about my feminine peeps.

As for starting a thread on this subject, I'm not inclined to do so at this time. My focus right now is on probing how we as feminine people are seen, how we see and understand ourselves, to what degree we are sublimated by the masculine domination in our environments. And how we can more actively move this tendency toward a more egalitarian dynamic.

[Lynn]

I truly love and respect the duality of a butch-femme relationship. It's the type of relationship I choose, and I find it exhilarating and intoxicating. I know that my partner reveres me and derives much of her identity from the nature of our relationship. But, I still struggle with the idea that I am defined in relation to her. "Her butch to my femme." Without the two, one is incomplete. That is why I end up concluding that my femmeness is a trait, not an identity, even with the butches in my life nodding affirmatively to the idea that I am "a" femme. I can't be "a" femme until my femme isn't dependent on anyone's butch, neither their approval nor their partnership.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

Basically, because this is a butch-femme website. I was referring to my experience within this dynamic.