"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Darth Denkay]

Hey Bulldog,

I really appreciate this dialogue.

Originally I identified only as butch - for me that was my gender that existed outside of male and female. As I saw other butches identifying as male or female, I figured I should use a qualifier too - since neither male or female fit comfortably. But you know what - I am butch, plain and simple. I get that for some butches either male or female resonates - but for me I'm just a good old butch.

You also make a really good point about women in general being masculine, regardless of sexual orientation. My mom, who as far as I know is straight, looks pretty masculine. She doesn't attempt to embrace femininity or masculinity, she is just herself, which happens to be an individual with a nice blend of masculine and feminine. I bet if you asked her if she identified as masculine or feminine, she'd say neither. She expresses what I would call her innate masculinity without any conscious effort. If I had to identify her I'd say masculine straight female, (although, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'straight' part isn't accurate).

Finally, I'm glad that you mention that female-identified butch is a little redundant too. At least as I understand the terms. Because I use male and female to signify physical sex, for me it feels unnecessary to point out that I am physically female. Now, I've never mentioned this before because I didn't want to come across as invalidating those who do embrace female-identified butch, but for me, butch is sufficient.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian.

[Dragonfly]

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by June

Amelia (Mel)

I loved that entire post and find it to be very true here in Portland as well. Younger folks do seem a lot more fluid in their identities and Gender presentations. I love that.

"Wasn't that what we were fighting for?"

Thank you for sharing that story.

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me .

[Jett]

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

[BullDog]

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by BullDog

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest.

Your most eloquent words speak my truth and my experience as well.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by friskyfemme

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me .

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

.....

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to.

ok enough. I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post 'this is what is I termed as 'female on female' sex which is what I have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has diferent meanings for different people. I have seen by response that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

[Dragonfly]

Aww Friskyfemme sorry to hear you feel like that... ok enough. Even the worst said thought is still helping everyone else. Lots read that dont post.

I missed what parts you thought were offensive lately... unless you meant earlier in the thread and or from the time area where you were quoting? Could you clarify when you were offended ... that is if you were newly offended or didnt post specifically what was offensive.... will you please post that for me?

It is very important to me to keep my head around what is offensive and why and to whom. I want to learn, grow and not make ANYone feel unwelcome here.... so you could help me do that in hypothetical future by giving me a heads up on it. If it is not anything newly posted or something you already said was offensive somewhere... Sorry nevermind I am re reading this thread to note all expressed offended feelings for future reference anyway....

Thank you for being so patient and welcoming to everyone's posts.

D.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
.

[Dragonfly]

I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me.

SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has...

A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do...


Wondering...
If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality....

If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally?

Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is".

And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway...

I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added.

** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community...

Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though....

Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with.

Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

Thanks to Gemme for the segway... I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post this is what 'I' termed as 'female on female' sex which is what 'I' have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has different meanings for different people. I have deduced by responses that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.