The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Martina]

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

[Beau]

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

i think all butches are aware of sexism and homophobia as it affects them on a daily basis. Are they aware of the many gender identities that exist and the biases common online and in some urban communities? No. Most are not. Whatever else may be going on in their lives, for better or worse, most are not.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Martina

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

I really hear what you've said Martina, it's something that's bothered me for a lonnnng ass time, and the way you put it kind of pinpointed something about it for me (and it speaks to some of what Beau has said as well).

I value this community and my friends here very much... but I wish I never knew of some of the ID'd politics that exist here, "ignorance is bliss" is truth in this arena.

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis
*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis

You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.

:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.



You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.

:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.




Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob.

Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.

And it won't now. Same Stone Butch BullDyke here, just on my own terms and terminology and not an added ID created for online politics... and I have absolutely no intention of losing any visibility in being seen as a proud butch female... just in living the same life I have in the real world here. And just to be sure it's clear, I'm speaking about dropping the word "ID'ing"- as in the term Female and/or Women ID'd... not about not claiming or speaking as a, or with butch female and/or women when and where I please.

I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.

Here's the long answer: (just to make things overly complicated )

If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.

And honestly an ID system used to categorize butches, that seems to inadvertently backfire when used on the female end isn't all that productive... especially if you can express being butch and female w/o turning the female part into looking as a qualifier or maybe better said modifier of the word butch by making it an "ID"... it's just plain getting misread a lot as that.

There's a hundred ways to say I'm a proud, I'm butch, I'm female without needing to use a qualifier ID... I like this one:
"stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman" (my friend Lonnie said that)

Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.

I hope you get what I'm saying... I know many won't agree but it feels like the right thing.

Oh and I'll leave my dance card right here, in case you, well you know...

Metropolis