The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Beau]

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

WOW, Beau, you have put forth a pretty comprehensive review, here! I hope we have discussions and additions to all of your points. And, as someone that really in the scheme of things, came to the B-F dynamic as well as butch identification rather late in life, I am having one of those I am not alone moments!

I have especially had some deeply troubling feelings about this devaluation from some (absolutely, not all) femmes. A point that I want to bring up, however, is that many times in this online context, I have been able to look at some of these comments in the context of perhaps a femme being defensive because of being partnered with (and loving) a transperson. I have seen many instances of femmes being attacked for this and their femmeness (even queerness) questioned within this community.

With that being said, there have been quite a few times (actually speaking about real time, right now), in a dating context, I have felt pressure to become more masculine from a femme, even to the point of having things said to me like you have slender hips and that would be good for transitioning. Or, just being a butch that doesn't pack (I will if it is requested from a femme I am seeing when its just one of those sexy thangs she likes - which is just between the two of us).Obviously, continuing to date these femmes was not an option for me. Even when I really cared for one of them. I'm who I am in general as myself and as a butch. My feelings here were that this is just not a good fit! If this is what a femme wants, then I certainly think she should have it, but it won't come from me. LOL.... I still can't fathom why these women even accepted a date with me! Made no sense. And, sure, I had a couple of pissed off moments about this.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

You are addressing some things that I think about a lot. The preoccupation with identities - it feels so constricting to me so very much of the time. Yes, I'm a butch.... but this is a very small part of who I am. In fact, it isn't all that significant at all. I'm a woman, a lesbian, a feminist, a parent, a retired professional, a neighbor, a disabled person, a sister, an Aunt and a Great Aunt, a writer, a volunteer and on and on. Butch is just part of the mix. It is not the whole of my existance.

I have met and befriended some really fine people via the online community we share, but my life does not revolve around this. Yes, I like to interact with people here. My social connections and activities are not B-F centered. I don't date within this community even though I date femmes (although, they can run the full range of whatever femme can appear to be). To be honest, I don't care if someone I am seeing identifies as femme. Many women do not and certainly get the dynamic. They don't need the labels and identity restrictions that these labels often bring with them. i don't want these either.

I have dated more often than not, women that simply do not want involvement in online sites like this one. Some would not attend B-F specific events. This is fine with me. If i want to attend something related to the B-F community, I can always attend by myself or with friends that want to attend.

I do have a connection with the site and as I said, some people here. I will do some social activities to be able to say hello to some people I just plain like from this community. But, I won't live my life boxed-in with being butch. I do feel deeply about social and political issues concerning the B-F community within civil rights issues and I will always speak-up about these and be active in organizations that help in effecting change that relates to this community.

[BullDog]

Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.

I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?

I don't think female identified butch is the flip side to male identified butch. I find female identified butch and woman identified butch to be rather meaningless terms, and I agree with Metro that they seem to work against us. I am not sure I see it as identity politics though. Most butches don't consider themselves to be male and don't wished to thought of as such. We have to speak up to make this known.

Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.

Online there's a lot of double speak. People will say that yes they believe butch women are just as butch as anyone else, just as masculine as anyone else, and then totally contradict themselves five minutes later with some other statement. It happens quite often. People of all gender identities do it.

It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.

[WickedFemme]

Can I just say, "I love you all" for being yourselves and not giving in to pressure, expectations, etc...
I am so attracted to those who are comfortable in themselves and with themselves... the confidence and perseverance is so attractive and appreciated.

I don't really have anything to add other than I totally support each and every one of you. I know it's a painful journey for all of us especially in our society and in our world where anything outside the 'norm' is perceived as less than. It's so difficult not to run around with rejection issues and project them onto each other especially after being rejected by our own Country and denied rights that every American enjoys 'if' they are heterosexual.

I have grown so much from reading everyone's thoughts and feelings and knowing some of you outside these websites for years... I have gained so much and appreciate everyone for all of their contributions...thank you for being uniquely 'you'.

I am femme and I strap it on yet I'm not 'butch'. so, lets please not equate sexual positions with gender ID's... has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

[Apocalipstic]

One of the things that strikes me from these posts is how much we as Femmes do to make things more difficult for Butches. (or easy)

The expectations we have.

The differences regionally or geographically in what is expected of a Butch by Femmes and vice versa. To open the door or not open the door. Who get the good parking space? who takes out the trash? cooks? kills the bugs and so forth.

I also must say that I agree strongly with Wicked Femme about sexual positions not equating gender ID. The expectation that the Butch is always the Top and always Dominant is not a realistic one.

On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.

Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?

There are things I see now in retrospect that I could have done better to be supportive of Butches I have dated...some who now have transitioned and some who have not. Things I should not have said, or worded differently.
Unrealistic expectations.....

Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

Barb, I think that sounds like bliss. It's actually much the way we (C. and I) live, we don't get into any of the "discussions" or go about and about with peeps and worry about who's what and what's who stuff. Unless I know someone from here I have no idea how people identify or if they even do... nor does it matter (unless it's a pronoun thing and in that case I'm sure they'll tell us).

I think Ink will be just fine, not all of us are are all that interested in dissecting ourselves over a brew. I don't know about everyone else but aside from a few B-F get togethers for the most part we hang in a pretty mixed crowd too. Truth though I can't blame you on the online stuff, it's crazy making. Think I'd be pretty used to it, and I love the community but damn... I've definitely never had so many wtf moments r/l. I'm sure I've caused a few of those in others though also... go figure But I have to say the ID stuff I've had enough of (on my part) and I really just want to just be... feels fucking good.

Any way yep, I do think we agree. Hey, let me know when you two get over here, won't quite be neighbors but if you two head down the coast it might be good to share a brew... and talk about non-gender related issues...