The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

adorable · 03-08-2010, 03:15 PM

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

Jett · 03-08-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adorable

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

AtLast · 03-08-2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

Have to add that I too, am getting positive reps about my posts from male-ided/trans/intergendered folks. They understand, respect, and support the thread and also know we are all on the same side and are not in the least bit put off (or defensive) with our taking a look at what is unique to the female-identified butch. They get it! and know that I return mutual respect and understanding And I appreciate this very much. I honestly see BFPlanet as a site that can finally be a place where we can have harmony. I feel very fortunate to have these kinds of butch friends.

Jett · 03-09-2010, 11:49 AM

I've been thinking about this thread, and about how I knew starting it would taken wrong by some. How peeps may take it as an affront to X, or think damn feminists I'm tired of it can't we just have fun? Well exactly... can't we?

Hey, I'm a really easy going person. I'm pretty damn mellow actually, pretty low key. In real life I've never really rapped about these things. I'm a simple peep with simple likes, and I'm a deep thinker with a big heart, I like to ride and rebuild motorcycles, play guitar, shoot basketball, play pool, have a bud with a bud, find a good suit second hand, spend time with my lady...simple things make me happy. I don't rant about sexism over dinner, I don't talk about misogyny at a party... I'm not to sure I've really ever talked at length about that stuff with anyone real life.

And frankly I've never called myself a feminist, don't really know enough about it's history- speak- in and outs, never been in women's only space... but... if feeling the injustice of the world toward women deep enough to speak out makes me one, then I guess I'm the accidental feminist. Maybe I just don't deal with feeling disrespected well (or seeing people I love dissed).. face to face I'm probably likely to let the first covert or accidental one fly (maybe two), after that I'll say hey that's not cool please don't say do whatever (benefit of the doubt)... but after I say it and someone keeps doing it your likely to be escorted out of my house.

I have big luvs for my B-F community... from A to Z. I know a lot of peeps here real life, a lot I don't, but definitely consider friends (a few just like r/l not so much, it happens). So it doesn't feel good to have to call out shit here any more than it does to hear it. I don't enjoy conflict, or the friction between some ID's, frankly though I see it- I'm just not feeling it in me and really don't want any part of it. I don't have some "group dislike". I'm not sure I'm even capable of that with any group in life (aside from say groups of the Fred Phelps variety) let alone toward masculine ID's like myself.

Identities are identities, they aren't people or personalities. The disrespects I've spoken of in relation to Female ID absolutely are NOT coming from one source, NOT one single ID and to be honest I've heard just as many sexist or sometimes just ignorant remarks from some random femmes mouth as I ever have from other masculine ID's like myself (and a few Female ID). So I never get why calling out the shit (sexism/misogyny) gets taken by some as putting the blame on the shoulders of Male ID's... it's not their doing and not just limited to any one group.

And back to me, despite being sick of the sexists remarks and the fact I don't know how exactly to change it sans call it out, and being really fecking tired of talking about it (I just want to live life), and definitely not one hair of desire to create a thread that I knew was going to be taken wrong and have good intentions be cast in a bad light by some, thus risk ending up in a never ending battle deflecting accusation which I'd rather drink a cold cup of dog shit than end up in...

... I did it anyway, because A. I'm Female simple as that (and to me being an adult female by default I'm a woman... not an ID and it's not political) and B. I have friends who I hear say they feel the sting too and don't feel like there being very well heard or seen... and that bothers me.

That is why this thread is here. This is how I feel, if the intent of this thread doesn't get heard I think it's only to those who don't want to open their ears or minds.

Ok, I'm again pretty talked out but all that said I hope this thread can now carry on in the spirit it was intended.

Metro

adorable, as far as your reference to this thread not going anywhere (as in resolving male female ID conflicts) unless we allow all ID's in here... although that's not what this thread is going to be about, I'd like to point out I already stated this thread IS open to all supporters and allies of the Female ID... and just so you know it, because I do, that includes many many Male ID, FTM, Trans because I've found many of them great friends and an allies in my real life and online already.

Beau · 03-09-2010, 02:15 PM

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

AtLast · 03-09-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online.

1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.)

2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.)

3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.)

4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.)

So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me.

Beau

WOW, Beau, you have put forth a pretty comprehensive review, here! I hope we have discussions and additions to all of your points. And, as someone that really in the scheme of things, came to the B-F dynamic as well as butch identification rather late in life, I am having one of those I am not alone moments!

I have especially had some deeply troubling feelings about this devaluation from some (absolutely, not all) femmes. A point that I want to bring up, however, is that many times in this online context, I have been able to look at some of these comments in the context of perhaps a femme being defensive because of being partnered with (and loving) a transperson. I have seen many instances of femmes being attacked for this and their femmeness (even queerness) questioned within this community.

With that being said, there have been quite a few times (actually speaking about real time, right now), in a dating context, I have felt pressure to become more masculine from a femme, even to the point of having things said to me like you have slender hips and that would be good for transitioning. Or, just being a butch that doesn't pack (I will if it is requested from a femme I am seeing when its just one of those sexy thangs she likes - which is just between the two of us).Obviously, continuing to date these femmes was not an option for me. Even when I really cared for one of them. I'm who I am in general as myself and as a butch. My feelings here were that this is just not a good fit! If this is what a femme wants, then I certainly think she should have it, but it won't come from me. LOL.... I still can't fathom why these women even accepted a date with me! Made no sense. And, sure, I had a couple of pissed off moments about this.

imperfect_cupcake · 03-10-2010, 02:20 AM

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

03-09-2010, 11:49 AM	#4
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I've been thinking about this thread, and about how I knew starting it would taken wrong by some. How peeps may take it as an affront to X, or think damn feminists I'm tired of it can't we just have fun? Well exactly... can't we? Hey, I'm a really easy going person. I'm pretty damn mellow actually, pretty low key. In real life I've never really rapped about these things. I'm a simple peep with simple likes, and I'm a deep thinker with a big heart, I like to ride and rebuild motorcycles, play guitar, shoot basketball, play pool, have a bud with a bud, find a good suit second hand, spend time with my lady...simple things make me happy. I don't rant about sexism over dinner, I don't talk about misogyny at a party... I'm not to sure I've really ever talked at length about that stuff with anyone real life. And frankly I've never called myself a feminist, don't really know enough about it's history- speak- in and outs, never been in women's only space... but... if feeling the injustice of the world toward women deep enough to speak out makes me one, then I guess I'm the accidental feminist. Maybe I just don't deal with feeling disrespected well (or seeing people I love dissed).. face to face I'm probably likely to let the first covert or accidental one fly (maybe two), after that I'll say hey that's not cool please don't say do whatever (benefit of the doubt)... but after I say it and someone keeps doing it your likely to be escorted out of my house. I have big luvs for my B-F community... from A to Z. I know a lot of peeps here real life, a lot I don't, but definitely consider friends (a few just like r/l not so much, it happens). So it doesn't feel good to have to call out shit here any more than it does to hear it. I don't enjoy conflict, or the friction between some ID's, frankly though I see it- I'm just not feeling it in me and really don't want any part of it. I don't have some "group dislike". I'm not sure I'm even capable of that with any group in life (aside from say groups of the Fred Phelps variety) let alone toward masculine ID's like myself. Identities are identities, they aren't people or personalities. The disrespects I've spoken of in relation to Female ID absolutely are NOT coming from one source, NOT one single ID and to be honest I've heard just as many sexist or sometimes just ignorant remarks from some random femmes mouth as I ever have from other masculine ID's like myself (and a few Female ID). So I never get why calling out the shit (sexism/misogyny) gets taken by some as putting the blame on the shoulders of Male ID's... it's not their doing and not just limited to any one group. And back to me, despite being sick of the sexists remarks and the fact I don't know how exactly to change it sans call it out, and being really fecking tired of talking about it (I just want to live life), and definitely not one hair of desire to create a thread that I knew was going to be taken wrong and have good intentions be cast in a bad light by some, thus risk ending up in a never ending battle deflecting accusation which I'd rather drink a cold cup of dog shit than end up in... ... I did it anyway, because A. I'm Female simple as that (and to me being an adult female by default I'm a woman... not an ID and it's not political) and B. I have friends who I hear say they feel the sting too and don't feel like there being very well heard or seen... and that bothers me. That is why this thread is here. This is how I feel, if the intent of this thread doesn't get heard I think it's only to those who don't want to open their ears or minds. Ok, I'm again pretty talked out but all that said I hope this thread can now carry on in the spirit it was intended. Metro adorable, as far as your reference to this thread not going anywhere (as in resolving male female ID conflicts) unless we allow all ID's in here... although that's not what this thread is going to be about, I'd like to point out I already stated this thread IS open to all supporters and allies of the Female ID... and just so you know it, because I do, that includes many many Male ID, FTM, Trans because I've found many of them great friends and an allies in my real life and online already. __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus Last edited by Jett; 03-09-2010 at 04:46 PM.

03-09-2010, 02:15 PM	#5
Beau Timed Out How Do You Identify?: . Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: . Posts: 178 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 71 Thanked 339 Times in 87 Posts Rep Power: 0	round 2 I think there are a lot of reasons why owning female and/or woman is difficult for some butches who ID that way, especially online. 1. They're online to troll for dates, so they fear being perceived as "less butch" and/or "too girlie". Considering the volumes of anti-female remarks I've seen online by femmes over the years, that is hardly surprising. (And no, I'm not bashing femmes, just stating what is obvious online regarding what are considered acceptable/desired butch qualities.) 2. They've spent little to no real time around other butches (this was true for me in real life because of where I live), and they're uncertain or insecure as to how they'll be perceived (again in a quantitative way). I was no little kid when I started coming online, and the pressure I perceived was enormous. (I didn't succumb or allow it to change me, but I didn't like it either.) 3. There's a push online to value the masculine because its the aspect of being butch that's common among most, if not all, butches (male and female ID'd), but it's taken to an extreme as if it was some kind of marker or goal rather than something that is innate and unique to each individual. Yes, I think it's often ridiculously affected, overblown, and exaggerated as a way to display "butch", which is sexist and demeaning overall. (Think of a group of teenage boys all comparing penis size.) 4. Lastly, it's sometimes a case of internalized homophobia. We all want to be considered "normal" or "okay" or "human" regardless of our sexual orientation or gender, and that's understandable. However, when that translates to the "we're just like a straight couple" mindset, I'm at a loss. Being queer, for me, has meant being "normal", "okay", or "human" just as I am -- a bulldagger who fucks other women and presents as masculine. That's a tough sell in the larger society, but it should not be that way among other queers. So, what I see online (and sometimes in real time, but rarely) is an effort to portray our relationships in some heteronormative way to feel "normal", "okay", or "human". I find that incredibly sad. (Again, I'm talking about those who don't ID as male in real life.) So, no, I don't think I've said anything new or insightful here, but I've tried to put together the main causes for what I perceive is the devaluation of the butch woman in online forums. And frankly, I'm really sick of it. I'm fucking tired of seeing the pressure to conform and the absence of authenticity surrounding this issue. But, that's probably just me. Beau

03-08-2010, 03:15 PM	#1
adorable Member How Do You Identify?: Sarcastically Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Home of the Yankee's Posts: 752 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,708 Thanked 2,644 Times in 590 Posts Rep Power: 12725119	Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side. But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space. Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself. Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

03-10-2010, 02:20 AM	#7
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,712 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are some internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There is "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal cough aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint. Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring." She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood. TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out. the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's relevant to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off! sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs. That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.