"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Bit

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

[Bit]

Ooops, Selly, I'm sorry, didn't know you were still posting... *reads*


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I see. *smiles* That's what happened the first time when the Feminist Wave hit Lesbiana, yanno? People went to androgynous. It didn't last, because it didn't fit us all.

The terms Butch and Femme will be here when the next generation needs them, I think.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

I wonder how much of that is cultural? As many of us are parenting I wonder how much our kids soak up. I have a 16 year old Femme who is in the habit of stuffing everyone into a butch/femme box because her role models are as such. It seems we have passed this world view on to her. Which is fine. Until it's not.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Diva

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....

Dead is very final, but I think that is is accurate. Yes, the harpsichord became the piano and the spinet and the (oh lord it's been a long time since I thought about this. . .) ottavano, right?. . . but the harpsichord isn't in use with the mass culture. Of course, it's not dead in the music world, it never will be (I hope) but if it's out of the hands of the many, that is, to me, dead.

It evolves, it changes, it becomes something completely different. . . But when you unwrap it, you can still see the roots there, plain as day. Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

Music always was one of my favorite subjects. . .

[Words]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

[Gemme]

Dead, dying, on life support or not, I like the terms butch and femme. They feel good in my mouth. They feel right. For me. For someone else, even if they look and act very much like I do, maybe not so much. As Arwen and some others touched on, you can only define yourself and the terms for yourself. Let others define themselves and the terms appropriate for them.

Gemme-Prefers 'on vacation' to dead, dying or life support

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

While you may not hear harpsichord music on z100, there is still music being composed for the harpsichord, and there are, like um, a bazillion more radio stations (and satellite!) than z100.

Perhaps it's true 80% of the people at an "extremely queer" school that offers G/L studies as a major don't know what the butch/femme dynamic is. I would expect that to probably be true just about anywhere. What would be pathetic, however, is if those numbers were reflected in said G/L program. You can't study a thing without knowing its history.

It seems unlikely to me that things have changed so much in the past year since I moved from New York. When I spoke to a group of high school students in Manhattan about gender identity, though they were every single one of them POC, at least half knew the terms butch and femme, and of course, now all of them know it, thanks to me. (*pat pat*)

Once again, I disbelieve that "if the youth doesn't embrace a term it will die." That statement is myopic, at best. Why do so many terms and fashions become reborn? Why do ancient religions, art and musical forms survive? In part because the young don't exist in a void, We're still here, telling our stories, writing them down, passing them on. Our youth are fundamental to change and growth, but they also grab hold of a thing, sometimes a piece of the past, an out dated fashion, and make it new again.

I welcome whatever new language comes into use, but I don't think it will be at the exclusion of "old" terms for identity. No, we're not going to start speaking Latin, but consider how many of our languages would be different, or non-existent if not for Latin.

These terms come about because they signify who we are - that's not going to change. Historically, lot of young queers follow the androgynous route as they "find" themselves (just because they ID as "genderqueer" today, doesn't mean they always will). Other terms may come about to speak to evolved identities, but that doesn't herald the erasure of butch and femme.

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Words

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

The current incarnation would be butch and femme.

I think that these identities will evolve, and help to shape something else (perhaps andro, perhaps genderqueer, perhaps new wave femme.) I don't think that they will be wiped off the face of the queer planet, but will change and evolve and become something completely different than they are now: a new incarnation.


Hope that helped.

[tmbyfem]

Butch/femme antiquated?? Maybe to some, but I prefer the term "classic".

Any reading of queer/lesbian history will show that the butch/femme dynamic has been around long before those specifc words were attached to it. The "cultural" feminists in the 70's declared it "dead" and yet B/F dynamics had a resurgance in the 80's and 90's.

Connecting with that energy and history was like a second coming out for me. First I came out as a lesbian, then a few years later as femme. Call it whatever you wish but for me, personally, to have my ID declared "dead" is rather dismissive of all those who went before us and seems ignorant of the past that brought us here to this point in time.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

Hey!! It'll be my 20th anniversary next year too!! Time for some cake!!

[QueenofQueens]

Listen to Shirley and learn...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTUIHK7gHRE"]YouTube- Propellerheads - History Repeating (1997) â–ºSTEREOâ—„[/ame]

Be who you are, regardless of fashion's edict or academia's clarion cry.

[Just_G]

Like the avacado appliances from the 70's that are coming back again, so will the terms butch and femme some day after they have been unused for a while.

I know my "label" changes somewhat depending on who I am in the company of. When in Dallas with my buddies down there, they consider me a Stud. When around my andro friends here in KC, I am a lesbian....of which I prefer Queer, and when I am around the likes of all you hooligans , I am Butch. My very favorite way to identify. It is what I am, it is who I am, and it is what my tattoo says.

I really think that the terms Butch and Femme will never be dead. Like Diva said, I will take those terms to my grave too, and I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon!

p.s. Jack, love your tool analogy....

[PapaC]

So when do I get to declare all just a fad? or better it...

it's just a phase

[Jet]

I'm in my 49th year of "cognizant" queer-dom..lol....I knew at four I was different and felt like a boy at five. Believe it or not, my nickname as a child was "Butch" given to me by mom of all people. I'll never change that or the fact that I'm attracted to femmes and all the beauty which that implies for me.

[WolfyOne]

This is a wonderful thread and it's been quite interesting reading everyones take on this subject.

[Apocalipstic]

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?

[Jet]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?

too funny...too cute

I swear of this continues I'm going to be a gay man when I transition with crush on Robert Downy Jr.

[friskyfemme]

I agree with Mr. ent and Diva. The terms butch, femme are identifiable as are
bi, tg, lesbian, straight, gay, queer, hetrosexual, homosexual, and many others. It istrue that someone at sometime coined each of these terms to explain how one viewed, idenitfied, and/or best described oneself and/or someone else. Just because someone doesn't id with the term doesn't mean that it isn't valid or is outdated. This discussion isn't a new one. As us older ones know. However, the bottom line is this RESPECT of others. If there is now an identity that better defines ME, I will be the One who coins it. I am then, now and always a 'Stonefemme'.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.