Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

Have to agree with Dylan and others about the laziness factor. I also feel deeply when our TG/IG members (including the women/femmes that love them) are disrespected/marginalized/pooh-pahed via the pronoun use. As bully points out, this all goes deeper than pronouns and name-tags. So many of us struggle with aspects of our identity here and really do need a space in which we can just talk about it!

Something I keep thinking about while engaging in the thread is how can we get away from all of the assumptions when we (all of us across the butch gender spectrum) simply state our female or male identifications?

dapper has a good take on this in terms of some of us not filling in the pronoun area because no matter what, someone takes whatever is there as some kind of bashing (goes both ways with male or female identities).

I get upset when I see generalizations about male identified/TG/IG members as well as we female/woman butch types! I see many stereotypic statements about them being sexist and hell, there are many female id'd butches that make very sexist comments! Has nothing to do with gender identity at all. Frankly, most TG guys I know are feminists!

So much of this stuff has never made sense to me. Martina pointed out something important to me, however. My history and geographic locale has skewed and blinded me, I think. I walk in this world with trans people all around me and have for many, many years. I have to say that my experiences pre-B-F exposure were very different in this context. It wasn't until actively living as a butch and entering this community that I have seen so much cruelty, sterotypic assumptions and out and out hostility about gender differences. Sometimes, I honestly do think about going back to just a lesbian identity even if I finally found a place of acceptance for my female masculinity and deep attraction to femmes as well as being able to talk with other butches and knowing they get me!

This has become so very confusing, frustrating and just plain painful to me. I know damn well that putting Bully’s quote on my sig line will cause BS. But, I am truly touched by what this says and just can’t remain hidden behind the insane butch margins any longer. My TG/IG friends know exactly how I feel and they are who matter really in terms of any back lash. The morons, as Beau points out, just don't matter as they will never engage in thyis conversation or ones like it in any meaniongful manner. they will continue to make stupid and childish boob and cock jokes.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Ahhh, I misread you then. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways.

[Jett]

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways. [/QUOTE]

Hey Gemme, actually I never noticed you use the chicken and egg thingy previously.

The chicken and egg reference (in my post) was to say perhaps that what caused a female ID'd butch to feel pressured to ID as "he" in the forum seemed more pertinent (to me) in the conversation than the idea that her doing that was somehow partially the source of "confusion" for people (about pronouns what-ever) because of some "mixed messages".

I'd assume since no one would really be aware a peep was doing that (except in this case June who knew her privately and seems to still be able to use correct pronouns etc. after the event) that such an occurrence wouldn't really have an affect on whether people can ask or know what pronouns to use etc.... in that I really don't see how it's "undermining everything" as you said either.

Also... I'm not seeing where I tried to choose "what posts do and do not elicit a response" in you (point it out if you like)... rather I simply said that that I found it interesting and relevant. Perhaps there is some misreading going on, both sides... but I don't do that, not that type of person.

And absolutely correct "criticism" is different than commentary...

Anyway, thanks for responding but I'm out on this one.

Metro

[Cyclopea]

I've been surprised to meet several butches that refer to themselves as "he" online but as "she" in real life, even among the femme-butch community locally.
As it was explained to me by one couple, "he" was used online to express her bonafides of butchness, while "she" was used in real life because she did not consider herself transgender and in real life she was a "proud dyke" and that online is just bullshit anyway.
I don't really judge what people feel they need to do.. okay wait, I guess truthfully I thought that was really weak.
It's so much easier to conform I guess, especially if that's the only way to be respected. At least that's how it was explained to me.
Long story short, my experience parallels June's and whoever else mentioned it.
I agree that holding butch women responsible for their own oppression is a ridiculous meme; however the acquiescence and conformity of women- even butch women- to their own oppression is not a new idea. It's pretty hard to stand up to a tidal wave when letting it pass by seemingly harmlessly may be effortless. Really, people are here not to battle tidal waves but to have fun.
The most disturbing thing to me is the number of people posting to this thread- the small number (and please don't take that as an insult because I have appreciated everyone who posted whether I shared their view or not).
I guess it's a time commitment to read every post in a thread and respond coherently. I would enjoy seeing more voices on this topic, whatever their view.
So many of you "oldsters" have bemoaned the "never-endingness" of the topic of the devaluation of the woman in "butch" but to me this is not a repetitive boring unresolvable conversation but one so relevant and interesting that it requires continued examination.