Weinstein

~ocean · 10-28-2017, 05:57 PM

excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .

Esme nha Maire · 10-29-2017, 04:52 AM

I'd written a short essay then Loki (or some other trickster god) ate it just before I completed it :-(

Short version of the lost chunk - media items will never be precise - there is a lot of assumed common understanding due to assumed common experience in ALL language, in order to keep sentences short and pithy. Some folk love to nitpick the perceived failings of pithy articles, assuming that only they have the wit to understand that the subject needs a more in-depth treatment in order to be fair. Some article-writers seem to be unaware that their articles cannot be fully accurate without putting off most of their intended audience, whilst others seem not to care. Ellen may have been criticising a certain kind of male behaviour by aping it for comedic effect - which is a known good way of tackling difficult subjects, sometimes. I do not know Ellen or her works or the situation reported well enough to feel in any way sure.

To continue...

We are free to think of others what we like in the privacy of the interior of our own heads - including lusting after boobies, muscles, or whatever. The issue is, IMO, to do with politness and entitlement. I don't in the least mind being chatted up by guys so long as they are polite throughout - including just after I've politely declined.

Given that we we are all sexual beings (those of us who are), and have our preferences in those we see as potential sexual partners (irrespective of whether the object of our desire reciprocates), how the hell else is one to think about those preferences without some form of objectification taking place at some point in proceedings?

I think that the problem here is again one of the way that language works - we often initially make a statement that is roughly what we mean, then clarify with follow-up statements, in cases where what we are talking about is complex. Sometimes it takes many, many clarifications to cover a subject correctly and adequately. In general social interactions -which are VERY complex - we do not have time to do all the clarification stuff. Assumptions and body language has to do a lot of that work. Can you imagine trying to chat someone up by explaining PRECISELY, in full, how you feel about them, the very first time you open your mouth to them, without taking an absolute age about it and losing the moment? In practice what folk tend to do is fling something out there, see what comes back, and (hopefully) hone in on things from there. It's a negotiated verbal dance to see where the outcome is going to be.

On the subject of sexual social interactions, I'm minded of the old joke about "well, if you wanted to go there, I wouldn't be starting from here...", If 'there' is equitable polite interaction that causes no distress to anyone and 'here' is how things are currently. Yes, we all live in societies with a long and unfortunate history of doing large chunks of the population a disservice by dint of being born with some characteristic or set of characteristics or other, and it's not that long since women were regarded as chattels even here in the UK (my grandmothers were born into such a world). And it's both important and necessary to question old social habits and try to replace them with better ones. But it's also important to try to avoid replacing one unpleasant regime with another.

There is far too much casual violence against women in the world, even today, here in the UK. There is far too much casual expectation that us women are here only for the benefit of males, and that our main worth is either in bed or as cheap labour, or to produce offspring for males. There is too much casual assumption that what women do does not matter, and is not so important as what men do. Ultimately, it boils down to a society having ingrained in it the notion of 'might is right', with all of the ugliness that that entails. And it's also true that women are not the only victims of societal attitudes and strictures. Clearly, society needs to change in order to improve things for us all.

Feminism is a movement that seeks to help us all address those issues, to make society a nicer and fairer place for all, irrespective of gender - but it started from a place of womens extreme disadvantage in the world as was. I have counted myself feminist from the moment I first read something on the subject, at age fifteen, IIRC. It blew my mind. It was wonderful! Yes! Here were people actually thinking aloud about how to make the world better rather than just going 'shut up, and know your place!'.

I was as intellectually in love with feminism as I was with the sciences, until the realisation dawned on me that feminists, being human, can be just as fallible as anyone else, and some can be so passionate in favour of trying to right the wrongs that have been inflicted against women for so long that they are blind to the wrongs they might inflict on others. In particular, in my case, I suffered greatly due to the currency given certain notions about transgendered folk by Mary Daly and her pupil, Janice Raymond, that were in fact no more than attempts to justify their own bigotry - in my opinion (and yes, I have read Raymonds book thoroughly AND looked at a sample of the sources quoted therein, and I am disgusted with both Raymond and Daly as a result). But that does not diminish Daly's achievements in getting us to look at the very language we use to communicate and see how ingrained bias against women is. The woman was, IMO, a genius - but a flawed one. Can't say as I'm perfect, either.

Women have been stigmatised in society for such a long time, and in languages. In class last week, we learnt the names of the parts of flowers. I learnt that the stigma is the entrance to the ovary in flowers. I suspect some of you may be thinking pretty much what I was thinking when I learnt that. If something is stigmatised, it is thought lesser or undesirable, and here is the word stigma referring to female genitalia, in essence. Hmmmnn..

So, what do we do about it? Rant and rave? Insist evryone immediately switch to other behaviours and other ways of talking about things? Would any of us expect that to happen? Would any of us actually DO that? Probably not.
What we can, and are more likely to do, is to try to modify behaviour in a more acceptable direction. Like being more polite to each other. Treating people as people, irrespective of whether some of their bits are like beacons to our libidos. Not imagining ourselves to have some kind of innate entitlement over others bodies (if someone voluntarily grants such entitlement to another, whether conditional or otherwise, that's another matter!) . Rinse and repeat over the generations,and hopefully society will improve over time, even if it does not right now.

Personally, then, I think it's not so much a case of doing away with objectification that's needed, as the impoliteness of objectification being expressed in inappropriate manners in inappropriate social situations being done away with that's needed. Does a nice pair of breasts attract my attention? Oh, my, yes - I am a lesbian, after all! Would I gawp at them in public as if the rest of the person they belong to didn't exist? Absolutely not! Would I behave differently were I in bed with their owner? Sure! - but I'd still be considerate of her as a human being, just as I'd expect her to be considerate of me as a human being.

Politeness is the answer to a LOT of social problems that aren't caused by sheer bigotry, IMO.

girl_dee · 10-29-2017, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~ocean

excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .

i struggle with questioning this without feeling like i am blaming the victim.

i am sure they felt if they didn’t, that they would never work again, or they had NO other option if they did want to work.

Bottom line is that they should have never been put in that position.

Martina · 10-29-2017, 05:40 AM

It really annoys me when people bring up the issue of how to express genuine interest in someone in this context. That's not what Weinstein was doing. Not what Wieseltier at the New Republic was doing. They got off on hurting and humiliating women, and they got away with it because they were willing to use their power to punish and reward victims.

Esme nha Maire · 10-29-2017, 05:44 AM

Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(

tantalizingfemme · 10-29-2017, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(

I think what Weinstein did goes way beyond failure of manners and lack of consideration. What comes to mind when I hear that is someone not getting up on a crowded bus and giving up their seat to someone who needs it. He’s a vulture who used all types of power to abuse and rape And while I am not going to get into specifics as to the situations I have been inwhen I experienced the same things, I will say I didn’t give in to anything. I had no other choice at the time. Just like all women that are abused and raped, if I actually thought I had a choice at the time, it would never have happened.

Esme nha Maire · 10-29-2017, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I think what Weinstein did goes way beyond failure of manners and lack of consideration. What comes to mind when I hear that is someone not getting up on a crowded bus and giving up their seat to someone who needs it. He’s a vulture who used all types of power to abuse and rape And while I am not going to get into specifics as to the situations I have been inwhen I experienced the same things, I will say I didn’t give in to anything. I had no other choice at the time. Just like all women that are abused and raped, if I actually thought I had a choice at the time, it would never have happened.

In the conventional usage of those terms, yes. Rape is an extreme example of lack of consideration for others. I didn't give into anything or have any other choice when I was raped either. He was simply so much stronger than me that I was powerless to fight back, unable to escape. What happened was what he wanted, whether I liked it or not, whether it hurt me or not.

It's this kind of thing with regard to language that I find so difficult. If one uses emotive language, it can be difficult to stick to logic - but in cases like Weinsteins, or Jimmy Savilles, if one uses less emotive language it can seem to some as if one has missed the point, or does not acknowledge the severity of the situation. I can assure you that I have neither missed the point nor do I fail to understand the severity of the crimes committed by such men. I simply chose to use unemotive language in order to prevent myself going into a foul-mouthed diatribe about them and what I would wish done to them in vengeance for their crimes.

C0LLETTE · 10-29-2017, 10:53 AM

I appreciate Anjelina et al but maybe it's time to look at women who work in factories and sweatshops and will likely never have a voice cause they are simply fodder to be replaced at will. Please tell me what can be done for them without starving their families.

Kobi · 10-29-2017, 07:56 AM

I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions.

With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean.

What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein.

For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence.

Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days.

Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours.

Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew.

Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again.

The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers.

The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior.

The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm.

There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean?

tantalizingfemme · 10-29-2017, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions.

With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean.

What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein.

For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence.

Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days.

Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours.

Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew.

Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again.

The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers.

The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior.

The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm.

There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean?

I believe the difference in treatment has to do with the current political climate. Trump being in office who denigrates most women at every turn and sees no accountibity has frustrated everyone who at a loss that his actions are deemed ok. It’s almost feels like since Trump can’t be accountable, Weinstein is the next big thing. I hope that it continues for all abusers. Regardless of position in the world. It should never happen.

homoe · 10-29-2017, 09:57 AM

I think this is the perfect time for women to confront AND call out any sexual harasser in their work place! ! I believe something has changed, not sure just why, but after hearing the interview with Diane Sawyer and Ashley Judd on ABC the other day I really think this is something that won't be so easily swept under the carpet any longer!

Between the Weinstein, Fox, & Halperin fiasco, plus countless others, Big Corporations are finally 'getting it' I think! The last thing any company wants now is the taint of some sexual harasser/predator in their employ at this place in time! Look how fast NBC fired Mark Halperin!

I think these sexual harassing men are FINALLY running scared, and I also pray I'm not being to much of an optimist!

Orema · 10-29-2017, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I believe the difference in treatment has to do with the current political climate. Trump being in office who denigrates most women at every turn and sees no accountibity has frustrated everyone who at a loss that his actions are deemed ok. It’s almost feels like since Trump can’t be accountable, Weinstein is the next big thing. I hope that it continues for all abusers. Regardless of position in the world. It should never happen.

I think this is part of it, but I think the big difference is our perception of the women speaking. I think that’s what’s making the difference.

The general public didn’t know Anita Hill, Monica Lewinsky, Juanita Broaddrick, Janice Dickerson, the 14 or so women accusing Trump, Gretchen Carlson, etc. and many people didn’t believe them.

But the actresses telling us what Weinstein put them through are women known by the general public. We know them, we trust them, these are women who have impacted our decisions through their art. I think that, coupled with Weinstien’s initial plea for mercy, has made a difference.

Martina · 10-29-2017, 09:54 AM

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/2...gtype=Homepage

CherylNYC · 10-29-2017, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~ocean

excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .

Rape and sexual assault are wounds in the most intimate place, and humiliating mind fcks, too. The very last thing most women want to do is expose themselves further in the aftermath of such an attack. Especially when the power balance favors their perpetrator so overwhelmingly as it did with Weinstein. Survivors are doubted, hounded and slut shamed. At least one of Trump's accusers endured credible threats on her life and was forced to leave the country. All that would be hard enough when a woman's psyche is at its strongest, but immediately post sexual assault, public shaming would feel exactly like a continuation of the rape. It doesn't confuse or surprise me a bit that women would take the hush money and concentrate on healing themselves. it would surprise and impress me if any of them had found the resources to "fight back" before this moment. Most of Weinstein's victims would have had no way to know that they were the 299th woman he raped, either. Had they come forward they would have done so thinking they were the only one. When all this plays out in the public eye with perfect strangers feeling empowered to pass judgement on your torment... Really, it's just plain unrealistic to expect a woman to go public the way she would if the same man had stolen her wallet, for instance. Anyone who grew from girlhood to womanhood in this culture would be well aware of the double standard and would know she was signing up to fight a very difficult battle. Probably alone. I'm not surprised that so many women needed the safety of numbers to come forward, but I am horrified at the sheer number of women who this criminal has raped. Especially since there are likely plenty more who haven't felt empowered to say "me too".

girl_dee · 10-30-2017, 04:18 AM

i haven’t gone back and read the posts because they are very triggering for me but i can tell you the sight of that fucker makes me want to vomit.

i am SO over women being subjected to this crap.

Thank you for the dialogue, we need to talk about it, even if it's hard to do so.

10-28-2017, 05:57 PM	#1
~ocean Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme blows a kiss off my finger tips * Preferred Pronoun?: ~ hey girl ~ Relationship Status: ~ single & content ~ Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Massachusetts ~coastal Posts: 7,905 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 22,958 Thanked 16,020 Times in 4,725 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi . __________________ ~ Always, ocean

10-29-2017, 05:40 AM	#4
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,285 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	It really annoys me when people bring up the issue of how to express genuine interest in someone in this context. That's not what Weinstein was doing. Not what Wieseltier at the New Republic was doing. They got off on hurting and humiliating women, and they got away with it because they were willing to use their power to punish and reward victims. __________________ "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up" - Lily Tomlin

10-29-2017, 05:44 AM	#5
Esme nha Maire Member How Do You Identify?: Tomboyish eccentric antique femme Preferred Pronoun?: She/her Relationship Status: single Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: UK Posts: 642 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,196 Thanked 2,078 Times in 541 Posts Rep Power: 19310770	Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others. Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-( Last edited by Esme nha Maire; 10-29-2017 at 05:48 AM.

10-29-2017, 10:53 AM	#8
C0LLETTE Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Depends on the day. Preferred Pronoun?: "I" and "we" Relationship Status: Very good. Thank you for asking. Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canada Posts: 11,501 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,676 Thanked 15,177 Times in 4,339 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	I appreciate Anjelina et al but maybe it's time to look at women who work in factories and sweatshops and will likely never have a voice cause they are simply fodder to be replaced at will. Please tell me what can be done for them without starving their families. __________________ ______________________________ ______________________________

10-29-2017, 07:56 AM	#9
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,622 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	I appreciate everyone's input thus far. The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions. With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean. What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein. For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence. Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days. Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours. Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew. Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again. The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers. The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior. The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm. There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean? __________________

10-29-2017, 04:52 AM	#2
Esme nha Maire Member How Do You Identify?: Tomboyish eccentric antique femme Preferred Pronoun?: She/her Relationship Status: single Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: UK Posts: 642 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,196 Thanked 2,078 Times in 541 Posts Rep Power: 19310770	I'd written a short essay then Loki (or some other trickster god) ate it just before I completed it :-( Short version of the lost chunk - media items will never be precise - there is a lot of assumed common understanding due to assumed common experience in ALL language, in order to keep sentences short and pithy. Some folk love to nitpick the perceived failings of pithy articles, assuming that only they have the wit to understand that the subject needs a more in-depth treatment in order to be fair. Some article-writers seem to be unaware that their articles cannot be fully accurate without putting off most of their intended audience, whilst others seem not to care. Ellen may have been criticising a certain kind of male behaviour by aping it for comedic effect - which is a known good way of tackling difficult subjects, sometimes. I do not know Ellen or her works or the situation reported well enough to feel in any way sure. To continue... We are free to think of others what we like in the privacy of the interior of our own heads - including lusting after boobies, muscles, or whatever. The issue is, IMO, to do with politness and entitlement. I don't in the least mind being chatted up by guys so long as they are polite throughout - including just after I've politely declined. Given that we we are all sexual beings (those of us who are), and have our preferences in those we see as potential sexual partners (irrespective of whether the object of our desire reciprocates), how the hell else is one to think about those preferences without some form of objectification taking place at some point in proceedings? I think that the problem here is again one of the way that language works - we often initially make a statement that is roughly what we mean, then clarify with follow-up statements, in cases where what we are talking about is complex. Sometimes it takes many, many clarifications to cover a subject correctly and adequately. In general social interactions -which are VERY complex - we do not have time to do all the clarification stuff. Assumptions and body language has to do a lot of that work. Can you imagine trying to chat someone up by explaining PRECISELY, in full, how you feel about them, the very first time you open your mouth to them, without taking an absolute age about it and losing the moment? In practice what folk tend to do is fling something out there, see what comes back, and (hopefully) hone in on things from there. It's a negotiated verbal dance to see where the outcome is going to be. On the subject of sexual social interactions, I'm minded of the old joke about "well, if you wanted to go there, I wouldn't be starting from here...", If 'there' is equitable polite interaction that causes no distress to anyone and 'here' is how things are currently. Yes, we all live in societies with a long and unfortunate history of doing large chunks of the population a disservice by dint of being born with some characteristic or set of characteristics or other, and it's not that long since women were regarded as chattels even here in the UK (my grandmothers were born into such a world). And it's both important and necessary to question old social habits and try to replace them with better ones. But it's also important to try to avoid replacing one unpleasant regime with another. There is far too much casual violence against women in the world, even today, here in the UK. There is far too much casual expectation that us women are here only for the benefit of males, and that our main worth is either in bed or as cheap labour, or to produce offspring for males. There is too much casual assumption that what women do does not matter, and is not so important as what men do. Ultimately, it boils down to a society having ingrained in it the notion of 'might is right', with all of the ugliness that that entails. And it's also true that women are not the only victims of societal attitudes and strictures. Clearly, society needs to change in order to improve things for us all. Feminism is a movement that seeks to help us all address those issues, to make society a nicer and fairer place for all, irrespective of gender - but it started from a place of womens extreme disadvantage in the world as was. I have counted myself feminist from the moment I first read something on the subject, at age fifteen, IIRC. It blew my mind. It was wonderful! Yes! Here were people actually thinking aloud about how to make the world better rather than just going 'shut up, and know your place!'. I was as intellectually in love with feminism as I was with the sciences, until the realisation dawned on me that feminists, being human, can be just as fallible as anyone else, and some can be so passionate in favour of trying to right the wrongs that have been inflicted against women for so long that they are blind to the wrongs they might inflict on others. In particular, in my case, I suffered greatly due to the currency given certain notions about transgendered folk by Mary Daly and her pupil, Janice Raymond, that were in fact no more than attempts to justify their own bigotry - in my opinion (and yes, I have read Raymonds book thoroughly AND looked at a sample of the sources quoted therein, and I am disgusted with both Raymond and Daly as a result). But that does not diminish Daly's achievements in getting us to look at the very language we use to communicate and see how ingrained bias against women is. The woman was, IMO, a genius - but a flawed one. Can't say as I'm perfect, either. Women have been stigmatised in society for such a long time, and in languages. In class last week, we learnt the names of the parts of flowers. I learnt that the stigma is the entrance to the ovary in flowers. I suspect some of you may be thinking pretty much what I was thinking when I learnt that. If something is stigmatised, it is thought lesser or undesirable, and here is the word stigma referring to female genitalia, in essence. Hmmmnn.. So, what do we do about it? Rant and rave? Insist evryone immediately switch to other behaviours and other ways of talking about things? Would any of us expect that to happen? Would any of us actually DO that? Probably not. What we can, and are more likely to do, is to try to modify behaviour in a more acceptable direction. Like being more polite to each other. Treating people as people, irrespective of whether some of their bits are like beacons to our libidos. Not imagining ourselves to have some kind of innate entitlement over others bodies (if someone voluntarily grants such entitlement to another, whether conditional or otherwise, that's another matter!) . Rinse and repeat over the generations,and hopefully society will improve over time, even if it does not right now. Personally, then, I think it's not so much a case of doing away with objectification that's needed, as the impoliteness of objectification being expressed in inappropriate manners in inappropriate social situations being done away with that's needed. Does a nice pair of breasts attract my attention? Oh, my, yes - I am a lesbian, after all! Would I gawp at them in public as if the rest of the person they belong to didn't exist? Absolutely not! Would I behave differently were I in bed with their owner? Sure! - but I'd still be considerate of her as a human being, just as I'd expect her to be considerate of me as a human being. Politeness is the answer to a LOT of social problems that aren't caused by sheer bigotry, IMO.

10-29-2017, 09:57 AM	#11
homoe Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Butch Relationship Status: ..... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 30 minute ferry ride from Seattle Posts: 38,565 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 20,811 Thanked 33,549 Times in 14,914 Posts Rep Power: 21474889	I think the tide has finally changed....... I think this is the perfect time for women to confront AND call out any sexual harasser in their work place! ! I believe something has changed, not sure just why, but after hearing the interview with Diane Sawyer and Ashley Judd on ABC the other day I really think this is something that won't be so easily swept under the carpet any longer! Between the Weinstein, Fox, & Halperin fiasco, plus countless others, Big Corporations are finally 'getting it' I think! The last thing any company wants now is the taint of some sexual harasser/predator in their employ at this place in time! Look how fast NBC fired Mark Halperin! I think these sexual harassing men are FINALLY running scared, and I also pray I'm not being to much of an optimist!

10-29-2017, 09:54 AM	#13
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,285 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/2...gtype=Homepage __________________ "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up" - Lily Tomlin

10-30-2017, 04:18 AM	#15
girl_dee Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: dee Relationship Status: Hitched up Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Livin’ the Dream Posts: 24,079 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,560 Thanked 54,832 Times in 13,908 Posts Rep Power: 21474873	i haven’t gone back and read the posts because they are very triggering for me but i can tell you the sight of that fucker makes me want to vomit. i am SO over women being subjected to this crap. Thank you for the dialogue, we need to talk about it, even if it's hard to do so.