Weinstein

[Esme nha Maire]

Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(

I think what Weinstein did goes way beyond failure of manners and lack of consideration. What comes to mind when I hear that is someone not getting up on a crowded bus and giving up their seat to someone who needs it. He’s a vulture who used all types of power to abuse and rape And while I am not going to get into specifics as to the situations I have been inwhen I experienced the same things, I will say I didn’t give in to anything. I had no other choice at the time. Just like all women that are abused and raped, if I actually thought I had a choice at the time, it would never have happened.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I think what Weinstein did goes way beyond failure of manners and lack of consideration. What comes to mind when I hear that is someone not getting up on a crowded bus and giving up their seat to someone who needs it. He’s a vulture who used all types of power to abuse and rape And while I am not going to get into specifics as to the situations I have been inwhen I experienced the same things, I will say I didn’t give in to anything. I had no other choice at the time. Just like all women that are abused and raped, if I actually thought I had a choice at the time, it would never have happened.

In the conventional usage of those terms, yes. Rape is an extreme example of lack of consideration for others. I didn't give into anything or have any other choice when I was raped either. He was simply so much stronger than me that I was powerless to fight back, unable to escape. What happened was what he wanted, whether I liked it or not, whether it hurt me or not.

It's this kind of thing with regard to language that I find so difficult. If one uses emotive language, it can be difficult to stick to logic - but in cases like Weinsteins, or Jimmy Savilles, if one uses less emotive language it can seem to some as if one has missed the point, or does not acknowledge the severity of the situation. I can assure you that I have neither missed the point nor do I fail to understand the severity of the crimes committed by such men. I simply chose to use unemotive language in order to prevent myself going into a foul-mouthed diatribe about them and what I would wish done to them in vengeance for their crimes.

[C0LLETTE]

I appreciate Anjelina et al but maybe it's time to look at women who work in factories and sweatshops and will likely never have a voice cause they are simply fodder to be replaced at will. Please tell me what can be done for them without starving their families.

[homoe]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

I appreciate Anjelina et al but maybe it's time to look at women who work in factories and sweatshops and will likely never have a voice cause they are simply fodder to be replaced at will. Please tell me what can be done for them without starving their families.

See, I think this is the perfect time for those women to come forward too! I think the chances of them being believed are GREATER now than ever before!

[homoe]

For sure this is a time that the old saying "Safety In Numbers" rings true! The more women that come forward the better off everyone else is!

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by homoe

For sure this is a time that the old saying "Safety In Numbers" rings true! The more women that come forward the better off everyone else is!

I agree with this. The unfortunate part is that the allegation has to become public for other women to know that there are others. And we all see what happens when the first person comes forward. One, they may very possibly remain the only one and two, they get ripped to shreds in the process. Scary stuff. Especially when your already vulnerable from the assault/rape.

[C0LLETTE]

Originally Posted by homoe

See, I think this is the perfect time for those wom and with the risk of en to come forward too! I think the chances of them being believed are GREATER now than ever before!

All true, however this belief is why middle class American woman just don't get it....they can't break out of their cultural assurances that even if they suffer now, it will ultimately be all good...that just isn't a reality or belief for most ( poor ) women in this world. Their choices to fight back are infinitely harder than ours with a lot fewer guarantees and the risk of far greater, even deadly, consequences for themselves and their families (read that as children etc ).

I believe that the more dramatic and swift the revolution, the more poor Third World women will suffer and be slaughtered , disproportionately. Are we sure we can ask this of them just because we feel we are ready?

[Kobi]

I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions.

With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean.

What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein.

For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence.

Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days.

Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours.

Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew.

Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again.

The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers.

The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior.

The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm.

There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean?

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions.

With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean.

What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein.

For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence.

Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days.

Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours.

Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew.

Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again.

The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers.

The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior.

The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm.

There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean?

I believe the difference in treatment has to do with the current political climate. Trump being in office who denigrates most women at every turn and sees no accountibity has frustrated everyone who at a loss that his actions are deemed ok. It’s almost feels like since Trump can’t be accountable, Weinstein is the next big thing. I hope that it continues for all abusers. Regardless of position in the world. It should never happen.

[homoe]

I think this is the perfect time for women to confront AND call out any sexual harasser in their work place! ! I believe something has changed, not sure just why, but after hearing the interview with Diane Sawyer and Ashley Judd on ABC the other day I really think this is something that won't be so easily swept under the carpet any longer!

Between the Weinstein, Fox, & Halperin fiasco, plus countless others, Big Corporations are finally 'getting it' I think! The last thing any company wants now is the taint of some sexual harasser/predator in their employ at this place in time! Look how fast NBC fired Mark Halperin!

I think these sexual harassing men are FINALLY running scared, and I also pray I'm not being to much of an optimist!

[Kätzchen]

I'm an survivor of sexual assault and rape.

I know what it's like to be blamed for something I never asked for or deserved or however anyone wants to stack up that pile of shitty horrible behavior.

I view sexual assault and rape as an deviant, subversive, horrifying combination of abuse of power, but also as an blatant example of abuse of power.

This subject triggers me greatly because holding perpetrators of such sick behavior accountable has not been an easy thing to do...... the sad irony, to me, is that by and large, sexual predator behaviors suffer some sort of fucked up double standard in terms of accountability.

The prime example that comes to mind is the neo-right wing of America somehow got what they wanted for an President, yet the current president is the biggest example we have in recent times where sexual predators can flaunt their crime and not be held accountable or punished.

That to me, that sexual predators or people who commit sexual crimes against women, is the saddest indictment on American society ..... that these types of things are never really dealt with in vigorous terms so that society says in an united way, in straight up unvarnished ways, that sexual crimes are not tolerated. And that how women are treated, truly does matter.

[homoe]

Originally Posted by homoe

I think this is the perfect time for women to confront AND call out any sexual harasser in their work place! ! I believe something has changed, not sure just why, but after hearing the interview with Diane Sawyer and Ashley Judd on ABC the other day I really think this is something that won't be so easily swept under the carpet any longer!

Between the Weinstein, Fox, & Halperin fiasco, plus countless others, Big Corporations are finally 'getting it' I think! The last thing any company wants now is the taint of some sexual harasser/predator in their employ at this place in time! Look how fast NBC fired Mark Halperin!

I think these sexual harassing men are FINALLY running scared, and I also pray I'm not being to much of an optimist!

Since posting this, the fact that NBC fired Matt Lauer without batting an eyelash only reinforces what I believe.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by homoe

Since posting this, the fact that NBC fired Matt Lauer without batting an eyelash only reinforces what I believe.

I would like to think you are correct. However, Lauer was not fired for sexual harassment. He was fired for violating the "morals" clause in his contract. Not sure what the morals clause said but they usually refer to anything that leaves the company open to law suits.

I'm not sure he was fired without batting an eye either. Predatory behavior is always known on some level. When it finds its way to the light of day, companies are now vulnerable to civil suits for a hostile work environment.

Part of me wants to believe companies would act for the benefit of their employees. Part of me knows companies act to protect themselves - especially when they are publicly traded and the powers that be need to be accountable to shareholders.

The NYT is a prime example. They broke the story on Weinstein. Yet, just a few weeks ago their White House reporter Glenn Thrush was being investigated for allegations of inappropriate sexual behavior toward other employees. Their answer was to suspend him, take him off the WH coverage, but retain his services.

Two steps forward and one step backwards.

This is a very complex issue and its complexity becomes evident with each instance and every corporate decision of how to deal with it.

The public has a very short attention span, especially for things that are not black and white, and that cannot be resolved easily.

What I hope is that women have learned a few things about how to protect themselves from the experiences of those who have come forward. Hopefully they have learned to size up a potential problem situation and stay away from it. For example, when a business meeting is charged from an office venue to a hotel venue a red flag should pop up. If you agreed to do it anyway and the hotel door is answered by someone in a bathrobe, turn around and head for the elevators. If a business meeting deteriorates into being asked for a massage, get up and leave. If someone grabs your breast or your junk in public and you find that inappropriate, make your response visible and vocal.

Crisis change is relatively rapid. Real change is painstakingly slow.

[Kätzchen]

An dear butch friend sent me the article from the magazine The New York Magazine , published on February 18th, 2018.

Remember how she testified before an senate committee before Clarence Thomas was appointed to be an Supreme Court Justice? And how back then, we had the first huge public case of sexual harassment and how her life was ruined by politicians making bargains with powerful GOP senators and pundits, to limit the scope of testimony proving the amoral behaviors of Clarence Thomas?

The article is superbly written and it goes deeper into the behind the scenes details of what happened to Anita Hill....I highly recommend reading this article for an inside look at how those in power play GOD for the day and participate in covering up behaviors, such as those of an Supreme Court judge nominee, who went on to be installed in an life long position, with his searing and hardly hidden, conservative right-leaning positions, which has altered the face of law on the books pertaining to women and women's rights.

LINK TO ARTICLE:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ce-thomas.html

[Orema]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I believe the difference in treatment has to do with the current political climate. Trump being in office who denigrates most women at every turn and sees no accountibity has frustrated everyone who at a loss that his actions are deemed ok. It’s almost feels like since Trump can’t be accountable, Weinstein is the next big thing. I hope that it continues for all abusers. Regardless of position in the world. It should never happen.

I think this is part of it, but I think the big difference is our perception of the women speaking. I think that’s what’s making the difference.

The general public didn’t know Anita Hill, Monica Lewinsky, Juanita Broaddrick, Janice Dickerson, the 14 or so women accusing Trump, Gretchen Carlson, etc. and many people didn’t believe them.

But the actresses telling us what Weinstein put them through are women known by the general public. We know them, we trust them, these are women who have impacted our decisions through their art. I think that, coupled with Weinstien’s initial plea for mercy, has made a difference.

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Orema

I think this is part of it, but I think the big difference is our perception of the women speaking. I think that’s what’s making the difference.

The general public didn’t know Anita Hill, Monica Lewinsky, Juanita Broaddrick, Janice Dickerson, the 14 or so women accusing Trump, Gretchen Carlson, etc. and many people didn’t believe them.

But the actresses telling us what Weinstein put them through are women known by the general public. We know them, we trust them, these are women who have impacted our decisions through their art. I think that, coupled with Weinstien’s initial plea for mercy, has made a difference.

I have been thinking about this and I see another reason too. Men (besides Weinstein) in the entertainment industry coming out to say yes, this is true. I hate it but I do think it's getting more legs because of that. And that sucks.

[Orema]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I have been thinking about this and I see another reason too. Men (besides Weinstein) in the entertainment industry coming out to say yes, this is true. I hate it but I do think it's getting more legs because of that. And that sucks.

I think this has made a difference, too, but I wonder if the men would have spoken up if Weinstein had vehemently denied the claims like Cosby, Ailes, and O'Reilly did. Maybe they would have spoken against him, but I'm not so sure.

[C0LLETTE]

Hello Kevin Spacey....you dumb horrid fuck

[Martina]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/2...gtype=Homepage