Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

You have really got me thinking on this one, Superfemme. I think these types of situations in the context of the outside world may end up carrying over. When I look at my own experiences, I have definitely felt the need, the onus to be protective of the people I have been with when there is somebody scarily homophobic or transphobic bristling in the foreground. I think that may be part of my own hypervigilence and protectiveness. I need to think about this more, but my initial thought is that picking sides and/or championing a side within a butch/transguy context is an act which can polarize our community, whereas acting in a protective way within the heteronormative cis-centric outer world would actually be the right thing to do, especially if doing so may minimize very real risks like violence.

I recently watched a bunch of youtubes of abc's what would you do? series (thank you Lady Snow for posting those links), and I was really horrified to know exactly how many people will not bother to help somebody who is in need of serious help - including homophobic and racist verbal or even physical attack. I think I also read in another thread that you have yourself been in situations where an effective ally would have been handy.

What I got from watching those and reading your posts is that it must be somewhat ingrained in human nature not to help others when they need it and so I think part of being a good and effective ally is to be willing to stand up, support and defend others when they are attacked or in need.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

I still don't know if this thread is for femmes only, so pardon me if I am out of line

I just find this interesting. Are you saying butches or men are NOT as hypervigilant and protective? I may have missed something, and I totally own that...I'm out of town and reading on my phone.

Here's why I ask...btw, I'm not calling you out...I'm asking seriously...so, here's why I ask.

Mahhh Woman notices looks/stares/whatnot from people that I never even see. She overhears comments and all sorts of shit I have become completely oblivious to over the years. I've heard other butches say the same thing about their partners. I *think* that because I have lived with the stares/comments for so long (as opposed to Mahhh Woman) I just don't notice them anymore (usually).

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

So, I'm truly curious...again not 'calling you out' or anything like that


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I still don't know if this thread is for femmes only, so pardon me if I am out of line

I just find this interesting. Are you saying butches or men are NOT as hypervigilant and protective? I may have missed something, and I totally own that...I'm out of town and reading on my phone.

Here's why I ask...btw, I'm not calling you out...I'm asking seriously...so, here's why I ask.

I am NOT saying that butches and/or men are not as hypervigilante and protective. At all. I might venture to say that you all are a tad bit desensitized after years of being hypersensitized though.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Mahhh Woman notices looks/stares/whatnot from people that I never even see. She overhears comments and all sorts of shit I have become completely oblivious to over the years. I've heard other butches say the same thing about their partners. I *think* that because I have lived with the stares/comments for so long (as opposed to Mahhh Woman) I just don't notice them anymore (usually).

Hah. See above.

Originally Posted by Dylan

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

So, I'm truly curious...again not 'calling you out' or anything like that


Dylan

No I *think* I get what you are saying Dylan and don't think you are calling me out. Let me see if I am reading you right.

You are going to get protective and resolve the situation if you sense danger in you and your womans *bubble* (or personal space so to speak). You are not oblivious to perceived or real threats at all.

Your woman on the other hand might have a larger bubble? Meaning that a look from that cowboy way way over there is going to trigger her spidey senses and her fight or flight mechanisms whereas it's become so second nature to you that it probably doesn't even register until the offender gets within a certain radius?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

I know what you're saying...and I totally agree with you. That shit drives me batty too.

To be clear, from my ME place...I don't have a problem with my partners talking to, flirting with, hamming it up with, whatevring with anyone else. I don't have a problem with people coming over to talk to my partners. That would be gross.

If my partner is done talking to you...I expect you to go away. If she has to tell you twice, I'm gonna have a problem. You'll get a third strike, and then ima say something.

And what I've noticed...and what drives me crazy is femmes (usually) have to repeat themselves a few times...but I only have to say something once. The first time is (usually) ignored. The second time a femme says something, she's (usually) giggled at or mocked or patted on the head. And yet, I only have to say something once. And this has happened with a number of femmes I've known who have been partners OR just friends. It happens with men and straight (or queer) women also.

I could give some examples if need be, but I'm definitely not talking about being a possessive freak. I'm talking about the way femme's boundaries are often trampled on (even if they're the loudest mouthed, toughest, alpha-y femme in the world...which most of my femme friends/partners tend to be), and they get patted on the head for being 'so cute' when they stick up for themselves.


Hope I'm Somewhat More Clear,
Dylan

[apretty]

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by apretty

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

I kind of think it sort of ties into the beginning of this thread cuz I think it affects how conversations go between butches and then men of the site, because it does change dynamics of conversations, and I think it leads to the 'save the femmes' placating that tends to happen in conversations...and then the slew of 'you are all so wonderful' fawning invasions that happen from both femmes and butches

"See this is why I love alllllllllllllll butches, cuz..."

"And that's why we love allllllllllllll femmes...cuz they just get us blah blah gag"



Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by apretty

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares