Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by June

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental?

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

[SuperFemme]

Aren't responsibility and influence light years apart?

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=June;130231]Well. We can start threads about anything, which I love. I read your OP yesterday, and then today, and I looked at the other posts, and *I* kept coming back to the same place. "Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"


I don't think it is a femme thing, I think it is a human thing. there is a kind of paradox that exists with the responsible thing: we are told we don't infulence others, everyone is responisble for themselves. If you let negative stuff bother you it is your problem. But, when we are nice, kind, gentle, accepting, that impacts those around us. everything runs good when people are good. So why, when people are mean do we want to say that should not impact others.
No matter how it should be in a perfect world, we don't live there. Our words and actions influence others. And yet in the end we are each responsible for our own selves. It is not simple or easy, it is complex and deep and full of complexities.

Common sense says that butches/trans impact femmes also, in both good and bad ways. So perhaps thinking about it in terms of humans and how we impact each other takes the "perceived femme responsiblity" out of it.

And really, I would say the same thing to everyone: Be who you are. There are always going to be people who don't like/accept you. You can not please everyone. So look for people who are accepting and kind. They can have any id, cause one's id is not what makes one a mean human. Mean humans are still mean when you strip everything else away.


I didn't come in here to waggle my finger at you, I came in to express an opinion. Besides, I know if I get that finger too close to your evil little mouth, you're gonna bite it off. <3

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by June

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental?

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------

"Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

Me too, except for the fact that my Femme friends have often acted as my social lubricant. heh.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

Yes, but I don't think they carry the same *gender* connotations for us that they do for our butch/trans counterparts.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking.

Now why is it that the other side doesn't get those labels? Or that the labels are mocked? Are we really going to sell our selves so short to say that when we discuss ourselves we are "over talking"? When there are pages and pages of threads about butch and trans identities and that is ok? That is something we need to examine I think.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

I think we appropriate these labels by losing ourselves to some extent. I have never EVER seen a trans guy question themselves and their identities once they started dating a Femme. Have you? I'd fall over if Cal woke up tomorrow and said to me...."Am I a Femme now"? Ha! No. What happens is Femmes struggle with "Am I straight now"?. Femmes also seem to go through the transition process with their beloved. Am I even remotely making sense?

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

Thought translation and Tarot Reading can't be that far off can they?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

I think it makes sense. I think what you are saying is that you speak to them from your *me* place and don't try to super-impose your thoughts onto them as their own? I know this only because you've done it with me in real time.

Originally Posted by June

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental?

I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

Which in the long run doesn't really build a bridge. Or does it? What do you think?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

I for one a uber grateful you started this thread. Please don't second guess.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.

What if we have a Femme in Shining Armor complex and want to ride in on our noble steed and save the day kind of thing going one?

Originally Posted by Martina

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------

OMG. I've seen it too. I may have even done it to some degree. Because we get in there and he just freezes up. Not because I want to appropriate....

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

I love your honesty.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by June

Yes, The Arwen -- I was being funny about the Ornamental part of it. But not as much about the responsible for things because I see this all the time.

And yes, I think it is about the expressing Desire and rejecting or being disrespectful of the desires of others.

For instance, I know, because you have said over and over again on these boards, that you are not interested in certain things. That's cool, that's your personal set of Desires, but it is not everyones personal set of Desires. Your Desires are not better than mine, they are just different. And where it gets real sticky for me is where we start assigning rank to people on a scale that looks like this:

Feminine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Masculine (good)

Or even:

Masculine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Feminine (good)

So, for me, and I am going to stick to this as a personal observation of the behavior of myself and others, we all share the responsibility of doing it to each other. It's not a Femme thing, it's a human thing. If you put a brick in that wall/fence, then take it the fuck out by reviewing and changing the behaviors and thought processes.

Kinda weirded out here, June. Not sure how my sexual preferences got wound up in this. I have never once said (although it's been extrapolated all over the place by those that never had the fucking respect to just ask me) that my non-preference to go down on a female lover made me better.

In fact, I can probably find where I've said that it made me worse or broken.

Now, I'm gonna tell you that this has really irked me because you got personal here. I'm going to take a breath and assume that you did so for a reason. However, my own personal hurt is really getting in the way of me seeing what that reason is.

I have never and will never say that someone who likes cunninglingus (receiving or giving) is worse or better than me. Simply different.

Now. If you want to make this about why I don't call myself a lesbian, let's go there. Because I have every right in the world to say that, don't I?

How on earth does my saying I don't like coconut diminish or lessen those who do? HOW?

I realize that you did not state what my preferences were, but I did because I don't much care for the hidden.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by June

Arwen -- I did not speak specifically about what your preferences were, or mine, I was using "you" and "me" as an example, because we were interacting with each other. I was not inferring that you use that scale, or think your desires are better than mine or vice versa. And for the record, since we're oversharing here, I am not a huge fan of giving or receiving in that way, there's other things I like a lot more/better.

I'm really sorry you took that to be any kind of attack or negativity towards you personally, because that was not my intent at all. I was having a dialogue with you and using your questions as a jumping off point, not any kind of blame center. I think now, looking at my post, I needed to make a paragraph break before I laid out my little graph thingy, because it is not clear where I switched to talking about different desires and went into the graph that I was kind of done relating with you and moving on to another topic.

Gimme a hug.

Thank you, June.

This is obviously one of those triggers that I wasn't aware of or thought I'd addressed. I haven't apparently because that hurt bad enough to make me curse.

I appreciate your clarification a lot. And I will always give you hugs because I happen to like you a lot.

Now I get to go to work. Do you think I should tell them I haven't had cafFIEND since yesterday morning?

Nah. They'll be okay.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by June

Arwen -- I did not speak specifically about what your preferences were, or mine, I was using "you" and "me" as an example, because we were interacting with each other. I was not inferring that you use that scale, or think your desires are better than mine or vice versa. And for the record, since we're oversharing here, I am not a huge fan of giving or receiving in that way, there's other things I like a lot more/better.

I'm really sorry you took that to be any kind of attack or negativity towards you personally, because that was not my intent at all. I was having a dialogue with you and using your questions as a jumping off point, not any kind of blame center. I think now, looking at my post, I needed to make a paragraph break before I laid out my little graph thingy, because it is not clear where I switched to talking about different desires and went into the graph that I was kind of done relating with you and moving on to another topic.

Gimme a hug.

Not to derail but I'd just like to say that I really appreciate this post June.

So often in an online setting we've been forced to settle for an atmosphere of do as I say, not as I do hypocrisy, and it is refreshing to see you say what you mean and mean what you say.

When the leadership here is willing to practice what they preach it makes us all willing to tow the line and sit up straight.

Kudos.

[Pretty Woman]

SuperFemme said: I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

And I agree! This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

SuperFemme said: I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

And I agree! This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

[Pretty Woman]

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

[evolveme]

I can’t say that I’ve ever personally witnessed a global (for lack of a better word) insertion of deliberate discord among butches/transguys by femmes or feminine women. What I have witnessed is a kind of dissension taking place amongst butches and transguys surrounding the circumstance at the center of which was a femme. I do not believe the femme was the problem so much as the underlying competition. And I think that competition, being what it is, is a natural impulse centered in our evolutionary instincts. Certainly the conditions of patriarchy make our competitive behaviors quite vicious and self-defeating at times, but as I’ve argued before (to crickets, but wth) patriarchy may well be a condition of the evolutionary impulse.

I’ll provide an example: For me, to use the wrong gender reference for someone is an act of aggression and I will not do it, regardless of my personal feelings about the individual in question. I’m not saying I’ve never done it, but in the years since I started dumping out the knapsack and looking the contents over, I simply refrain. Still, and in spite of the ardent activists I’ve known, I have repeatedly witnessed certain butches/transguys utilize incorrect gender references out of cruelty and in times of frustration.

Back to competition: in spite of the fact that we’re predominantly queer and our partnerings are unlikely to affect population rates toward the surplus, our survival instinct compels us to seek a mate. In every species, this process is the underlying play of its adult groups. And through this process, competition is born. In fact, it’s necessary. We might have the iPhone 4.0 and quantum computing and Bill Maher and personal politics and Julie Marie Wade but we are stupid to think that 2.5 million years of evolution* doesn’t daily inform our interactions with one another (even when we think we’re being smooth). Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

*just since Homo

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

Hi Pretty Woman

I was actually one of the femmes participating in that thread and remember that exchange well. For me, this is a classic example of how our different viewpoints impact what we read and how we read it.

While the butch's remarks were rather juvenile (and arguably insensitive), I certainly didn't read them as sexual in nature. If I remember it correctly, it was along the lines of "peeking in and just gonna sit quietly over here --->> ".

Your response to him read as incredibly harsh (to me). I remember thinking "oh good grief" when he posted....and "oh holy hell" when you did. To his credit, he immediately apologized. And no, I was not one of the femmes who posted to defend him, because I felt that he was perfectly capable of explaining, apologizing and exiting all on his own. When it all blew up, he apologized several times. To me, he made a mistake and he aplogized for it.

No, I don't think he needed femmes to defend him. But I also think it's possible that the harshness of your correction to him made some of those who care about him upset. He is a genuinely nice and caring person, and I think some of those who know that were offended.

I don't think that was a case of femmes attacking other femmes to defend a butch's feelings. I think that was a case of friends feeling like a friend had been unfairly browbeaten for an innocent mistake.

I agree with you though, that the thread quickly deteriorated after that. It was really a place for femmes to discuss a very sensitive and personal subject, and it turned into a mess.