Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[Jett]

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like the dissonance between different masculine BFP ID's goes beyond butch codes, dating ex's etc.? I've never done that but still gotten caught in the cross fire of these "gender wars". (Yeah I realize that's bonding but needed a jump in )

Personally I think a lot of it revolves around ingrained stereotypical beliefs about women, men, female, male, lesbians, feminists and sure sometimes (but I think much less often) just plain sexism, lesphobia/homophobia, transphobia and misogyny etc.

I mentioned before that I think things here (online) get lost in translation. People read others posts through there own lens, if some of the things I mentioned above (and more) are in that persons lens when they're reading posts, I think they can read a lot between the lines that isn't there.

We are full of misinformation by the time we find these sites, "transmen transition to gain priviledge or b/c of misogyny", "lesbians hate men", "all queer females are extreme feminists", etc. etc. etc. And we get here where we should be finally equally valued and find... male female hierarchies, so here female ID'd feel undervalued and misunderstood. Male ID'd hear "I only date female ID", and to be fair this is something they face hugely more in the real world than female ID'd do. Those majority of (femme or not) lesbians who are "goo goo ga ga over butches but don't want those who think they're or look too male". That stuffs all over the internet and real life too.

And there aren't big real world communities for Transpeople and most tg or male ID butches the way there are for most female ID butches and butch lesbians. Would anyone wonder why they'd place such great value on having and finding community and desiring to feel welcome here and probably being somewhat defensive about it? I sure as hell don't.

I dunno, I think we bring a lot of the negative real world experiences in here with us, beliefs, resentments, fears and project them out onto each other...

We look for these things and where you look you'll most certainly see whether it's always there or not. Then it's the "Aha! I was right about them!"... when in reality the majority are really good peeps and we should and can be some of each others best friends and allies no matter the ID (sans natural personality conflicts).

I mean does anyone really want to win the "war"? Really actually want some particular ID to one by one blip off the site forever? I like to think none of us would really want to see that happen to anybody let alone a whole group of people.

People waste to much life on this stupid "war", I don't want anything to do with it, everything about it just tastes like shit. That's all I got to say about it.

Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just responded a short time ago in a thread Medusa started about communication. And I will basically state here what I did there because it is how I feel.

I think/believe we all should celebrate each other. We should just love each other instead of tearing each other down. Life is hard enough. It is this simple.

Love,
Andrew

[Dylan]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

Some is operative, I hope!

Maybe, this happens simply due to the fact that no matter who we are, we have been subjected to the patriarchal confines of gender all of our lives. Unfortunately, man, male just gets equated with privilege due to this. Not a good jump to take, as there are a hell of a lot of variables involved in any form of privilege.

Also, and unfortunately, the male role models many of us have had have just been examples of this privilege gone amuck in this man's world.

On the other side of this, as one having a hand in raising a male child (who is now raising two female children), I have to say that it can be as painful to see what men in general can be saddled with in terms of the entire patriarchal schema. There are many just plain human characteristics that get genderized in ways that hold us all back.

Personally, I feel it is the buss word phenomenon here that is the culprit most often (unless it's just obvious sexist terminology - and when I use the term sexist, it means toward any form of gender). Also, the plain truth is that there have been times when I have been attacked for identifying as female. And the inverse is true for male identification. So, we all will most likely get pissed when we have this happen.

However, the problem is when we all generalize the deeds of an individual to every identification represented here. Hey, I admit, that sometimes it is hard for me to see past what has happened to me via this privilege in life, especially sexual assault and receiving less pay for the same work.

I have to bring up the fact that many male-identified or Transmen here do slap misogynist statements down as much as any female-identified butch here. I’m thinking it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at what a member’s identification is to the left of the screen when reading posts.

But, in terms of how we interact as friends in our lives or support gender as what we now know (some of us are old), fluid and just not your mother's or father's gender? And, online, how do we all deal with this... that is my original question. What effect does this have on us as part of this entire community?


But, 'cept.... talk about all of this.... I'm too arthritic to tackle much these days...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

I don't believe I've ever seen FIB's say that male ID receive male privilege, or the posts you've spoken of either. More so I've seen many conversations involving all ID's, femme, butches, etc speaking on if transmen receive it.

If there's that "common belief", I guess no one told me, can't help you. I could speculate, but it's be just that speculation, cause I don't believe they do myself. Besides I think there's enough speculation around here enough as it.

Metro

[TenderKnight]

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

That's cool. I wasn't sure. I just saw a lot of people referencing the 'gender wars', and I thought instead of just referencing, maybe someone wanted to actually talk about it. But I'm cool not talking about it too, cuz I'm sick of that conversation too.

So maybe we could all stop side skirting it, and just drop it? Cuz I'm kind of at the shit or get off the pot (openly discuss it or shut up about) point.

So six o' one/ half dozen o' the other...I'm e-z goin'

Thanks for your decent post, and thanks for your posts atlast and met


So...This Is One Of Those Bonding Threads?,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win.

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

[sharkchomp]

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[TenderKnight]

You know, I don't deny it is going on and has been going on for years, both online and off. Why else would I feel so damned heart sick over this stuff? People are getting hurt, people are defensive and offensive, there are clear sides and clear "captions" if not generals.. Hell yeah there is a gender war going on here.

The question that I'd like answered is this; what questions do we ask, not only of others but of ourselves about all this? How can we help respect bounderies so that all can live in a comfortable balance here? How can we help mediate the sides so that there are clear and set lines that we don't cross?

I don't know. I am totally open to discussing this, my heart and soul bare, if it will bring some kind of peace. Can this happen? Can we come to the table without arms or armor?

If there is a war here, this is what has to happen.

So.. How do we do this?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.