Open Letter: Dear Femme

[blush]

[QUOTE=Arwen;14200]I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.

Word. And one of the advantages of being friends before lovers is that you have known each other outside of that relationship role. But yeah, I totally agree. Obviously.

[always2late]

I think we do judge each other harshly. In fact, I put forth that, at times, we judge ourselves and our sisters more harshly than any "outside" source. How often are we prone to "label" someone else..and yet become indignant when we are labeled? A straight friend once told me "Women do not dress for men, they dress for other women." And that shocked me somewhat. But when I examined it, I found it to be quite true. Why are we so eager to pass judgement, good or bad, on each other?

[blush]

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by blush

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

Here.
<hands blush a fork>

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW GROSS! Gag!

grin. Not really. I am uncomfortable when it is overt sexual flirting from another femme directed at me. It reminds me of how inadequate I am as a lesbian. (whole 'nother thread...don't go there)

However if you brain flirt with me, you're on...my list already.

Originally Posted by blush

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

This was really really funny to me because right before I read this post by you, I was thinking something very similar. It's been a long time since I've seen a thread go this many pages with nearly no uproar to speak of.

What is WRONG with you people?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

Here's a thought for you to try on. See what you think.

Maybe they are harsh because you are doing what they cannot. Maybe we are crueler and meaner and try to rein in harder those that do what we secretly wish we could?

[Arwen]

Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

Shit. Yes. The little hairs on my arms are standing on end.

[Bit]

Dear Goddess, I'm now nine pages behind and the convo has moved far, far past the place where I left off... I am afraid that if I start responding to things back on page three, page four, it will be a derailment of sorts. This is going to take some thinking....

[apretty]

from the first page of this thread i've kept thinking: "master's tools/master's house"

so, i went looking for more Audre Lorde, (sure she was trying to get in on the conversation/at least in my head)

"There's always someone asking you to underline one piece of yourself -- whether it's Black, woman, mother, dyke, teacher, etc. -- because that's the piece that they need to key in to. They want to dismiss everything else."

and

"I am who I am, doing what I came to do, acting upon you like a drug or chisel or remind you of your me-ness as I discover you in myself."

i feel like this, especially the last quote, is how we all fit together. (and it feels fucking fantastic)

[apretty]

Originally Posted by evolveme

In the last week, here and elsewhere, heated discussions have arisen as to the overwhelming male-centric nature of our on-line spaces, our communities. We have come into those discussions to address this concern, always as a voice of support. Support for those who feel challenged (trans and male-id’d people). Support for those who feel unseen (women-identified butches).

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by apretty

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

i don't fancy myself co-dependent (tho i've read the books and can highly relate to lots of the markers of co-dependency. ha) but i do feel that, personally, my 'femme' is being wrongfully 'accused'--and i'm thinking on that, why i feel defensive/protective and why i can't necessarily hear the part about how 'femme' has played a role in creating a male-centric environment here/elsewhere. whatever that's about, i find myself resisting it/not wanting to take on that responsibility...

[Diva]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Diva

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

and you *should* write it. i believe all of our stories are valuable and a testament to where we've been and how far we need to go (as a society).

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by apretty

i don't fancy myself co-dependent (tho i've read the books and can highly relate to lots of the markers of co-dependency. ha) but i do feel that, personally, my 'femme' is being wrongfully 'accused'--and i'm thinking on that, why i feel defensive/protective and why i can't necessarily hear the part about how 'femme' has played a role in creating a male-centric environment here/elsewhere. whatever that's about, i find myself resisting it/not wanting to take on that responsibility...

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

Originally Posted by Diva

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[always2late]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

Originally Posted by always2late

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

Anyone want to add comments? I tried to hit the last questions we've had in the thread. If I missed a question, it's not intentional.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behaviour from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.