It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[DomnNC]

Laughs, too late for me ... perhaps I should have said that some believe ALL Arizona residents (regardless if that is how you believe/support or not) should assume the responsibility of blame for the haters, discriminators and racial profiling. She's not responsible for the blame of say her neighbor if he's a hater, discriminator or in favor of racial profiling just because she lives there as well. She's not one of them (just because she lives there) nor will she carry the burden of blame for their beliefs/actions.

Sorry, I even reread that last one.

[katsarecool]

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ. I do not fault anyone for not keeping up with the news. They have their own reasons. One of my children cannot bear to watch the news and does not keep up on current events. She says the news triggers some fears inside from childhood; all the sad and tragic news. This does not mean that she does not care about people who are hurt and harmed at all though because she does. She has a lot on her own plate with a large family (three teenage girls, two sons one with special needs), job situations for her and her husband along with financial woes as well. I get that. Not happy about it but it is her choice.

[MsDemeanor]

Then there are the AZ Death Panels. Yes, Sarah P., they do exist, and they are headed by heartless, soulless, all that matters is money and fuck the human consequences Republicans.

AZ recently cut funding for certain types of transplants. 98 people in the state are affected by this policy change, plus the state lost millions in Medicare matching dollars as a result of this decision. The numbers that I have are $5M cut for transplants resulted in $15M lost in matching funds, but I haven't had time to verify the information. Keith Olbermann highlighted two families affected by this, including one man who was being prepped for the transplant operation when he was told the the funding for his surgery had been pulled.

Now, someone has died. linkyloo Brewer refuses to call a special legislative session to deal with the matter.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by katsarecool

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ.

As long as they don't vote, that's fine. I have a serious beef with low-information voters.

[katsarecool]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

As long as they don't vote, that's fine. I have a serious beef with low-information voters.

So do I. Having learned from the eight years of the Bush Adm. and grinding my teeth on that very issue.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by katsarecool

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ. I do not fault anyone for not keeping up with the news. They have their own reasons. One of my children cannot bear to watch the news and does not keep up on current events. She says the news triggers some fears inside from childhood; all the sad and tragic news. This does not mean that she does not care about people who are hurt and harmed at all though because she does. She has a lot on her own plate with a large family (three teenage girls, two sons one with special needs), job situations for her and her husband along with financial woes as well. I get that. Not happy about it but it is her choice.

You took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak. This was actually almost exactly what I intended on coming here to say, but I got derailed by my own earlier posts LOL

[Glenn]

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Viper team security check points at Tampa area bus stations.
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click link and ceo talks to you about how illegals make money for geo group.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Laughs, too late for me ... perhaps I should have said that some believe ALL Arizona residents (regardless if that is how you believe/support or not) should assume the responsibility of blame for the haters, discriminators and racial profiling. She's not responsible for the blame of say her neighbor if he's a hater, discriminator or in favor of racial profiling just because she lives there as well. She's not one of them (just because she lives there) nor will she carry the burden of blame for their beliefs/actions.

Sorry, I even reread that last one.

I'm curious, at what point are bystanders complicit? Is there any point? Or is it the case that provided that you never pull the trigger yourself, even if you just stand by and watch it repeatedly, you're still not in the least bit complicit?

Cheers
Aj

[DomnNC]

Hmm, I didn't realize that only people who reside in Arizona could make a comment, you yourself do not live in Arizona but you have made plenty of comments concerning the situation as well. I saw what I perceived to be a lack of understanding in what someone was saying, which by the posts being made was a clear indication of such so I posted what I thought the poster was trying to say, which if you see her comment, I was correct. I didn't come here to beat on some people like others have by their comments whether anyone intended to do so or not, it is still being done with the blanket statements being made about people residing in Arizona as a whole.

[Novelafemme]

http://http://www.npr.org/templates/...ryId=130833741

On my way to class right now but wanted to share this link (if it hasn't already been shared previously)...some scary shit!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Hmm, I didn't realize that only people who reside in Arizona could make a comment, you yourself do not live in Arizona but you have made plenty of comments concerning the situation as well. I saw what I perceived to be a lack of understanding in what someone was saying, which by the posts being made was a clear indication of such so I posted what I thought the poster was trying to say, which if you see her comment, I was correct. I didn't come here to beat on some people like others have by their comments whether anyone intended to do so or not, it is still being done with the blanket statements being made about people residing in Arizona as a whole.

Huh? Who is saying that only people who reside in Arizona can comment? Where is this coming from? The good people of Arizona elected, with full knowledge of where they stood, politicians who support a law that is an invitation to racial profiling. They also elected a governor who told blatant lies about beheadings in the desert as a means of creating the impression that Hispanic immigrants are a grave security threat. Now, did every single Arizonan do vote for Ms Brewer? No. That doesn't change the fact that she was elected in a vote that was, as far as I am aware, was free and fair and would pass UN muster.

At some point, Americans have to recognize that we ARE, in point of fact, responsible for what happens in our nation and even if we do not see ourselves as responsible that doesn't mean that others are obliged to enable our illusions. Were ordinary Germans--not SS, not SA, not Gestapo, not Wehrmacht just the average tinker, tailor, baker, etc.--responsible for what happened in their country between 1933 and 1945? Yes, as a matter of fact they were. Were ordinary Russians responsible for what happened in their country between 1917 and 1990? Yes, again, they were. Are ordinary Americans responsible for what happens here? Yes, we are. If someone voted for Ms Brewer, they gave their tacit approval of her policies including SB 1070. If someone didn't vote at all, they gave their tacit vote to Ms Brewer (because in not voting you vote for whomever ends up winning by default). If someone voted against Ms Brewer they clearly registered their protest.

This seems relatively straight-forward. We actually ask very little in way of civic participation in this country. The only thing you *have* to do is pay taxes and serve on juries. That's it. You don't have to vote. You don't have to do any kind of national service--military or civil. One result of this is that we have a stunningly unengaged polis and our politics actually reflect that. SOLELY on the basis of her paranoid and fantastic lies about beheadings in the desert, Ms Brewer should have been humiliated at the voting booth but that's not what happened. She won and did so handily. Why? Because only 47% (rounding up, the actual number is 46.494%) of registered voters actually bothered to vote. What's sad is that for a mid-term election that's a little above the national average! What's pathetic about it is that there was no real danger to voting. In Iraq, in 2005, 2006, 2007 elections were held and each year there were real and credible threats to people who turned out to vote. Car bombs were a daily part of life in the major Iraqi cities and still people turned out to vote. Their voting percentage was in the upper 80% range! We, as Americans, should be deeply embarrassed by this. A nation with NO democratic tradition, under credible--hell likely!--threat of violence manages to turn out almost their entire eligible voting population. Our nation, with a 200 year democratic tradition and no credible threat of violence can't turn out half. And we wonder why our nation is so screwed up.

[DomnNC]

The point is that the people who reside in Arizona who posted in this thread have said, more than once, they voted and they DID NOT vote for her or her policies and they feel like they are still being slammed and grouped in with those who DID vote for her by all the "blanket" statements being made about people who reside in Arizona as a whole. They registered their protest with their vote as you just said but are still being held accountable for every other Arizonians vote. Just because they believe that a boycott is not the answer for their state does not make them bad people or complicit in what has happened by other peoples votes.

Btw, I am a registered voter and I do vote in every election. You can't take a gun to other complacent voters heads and make them go to the polls. I agree that a lot of voters need a swift kick in the ass to get to the polls. There could have been a different outcome in Arizona if every registered voter did go to the polls but it is not our place to heap condemnation and group blame upon those that in fact did go vote and vote against the current administration there thereby registering their protest.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

The point is that the people who reside in Arizona who posted in this thread have said, more than once, they voted and they DID NOT vote for her or her policies and they feel like they are still being slammed and grouped in with those who DID vote for her by all the "blanket" statements being made about people who reside in Arizona as a whole.

Except people keep bending over backwards to make it clear that they aren't saying that the people HERE believe the law to be just. Now, I am curious if a boycott and/or mass exodus of Hispanics is NOT the answer, what is? Let's grant, for the moment, that a boycott isn't the way to deal with this? What then? Obviously we know how this turns out at the ballot box--the backers, proponent and apologists for this law win. So if money continues to pour into Arizona then there is no economic consequence to be paid for this law. So politicians who backed the law pay no political price and the state, as a whole, pays no economic price. At that point what is there to discourage Arizona from passing an even more draconian law?

That pretty much leaves the mass exodus of Hispanics which I still hold would probably be the *most* effective form of protest. At first, one might witness the spectacle of Arizonans singing "na na na, na na na, hey hey hey, good-bye" and that would probably go through the wave. After that, well, it starts to have an economic effect. Suddenly there are a lot fewer people doing everything from washing dishes to teaching classes. As I said yesterday, when they leave their dollars go with them. Tax revenues decline. The tourism and hospitality sectors of the economy will be hit particularly hard as they lose cheap labor.

I get it that the Arizonans don't want any of these things to happen to their state. I fully understand that. However, it makes no sense to suggest that those either targeted by this law or horrified by it simply shrug our collective shoulders in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

They registered their protest with their vote as you just said but are still being held accountable for every other Arizonians vote.

No, they are not. They are choosing to take a very justified critique of this law and the Arizonan politics that birthed it in a personal fashion. I'll try--again--to explain the distinction.

"In 1940, America was a fundamentally racist country."

Now, according to the logic being deployed here, I have just claimed that every single American living in the borders of this country in December 1940 was a racist. I have insulted--personally--every single American living at that time. Except I haven't. My parents were alive in 1940, both of them turned 18 that year. They were the *targets* of racism but they were not, themselves, racism. Does that mean that America wasn't a fundamentally racist country? No, the statement still stands because the *laws* of America mandated segregation in public accommodation, the military, etc. One can make the observation that America was a racist nation in 1940 and *still* not be saying something that any given person alive in 1940 was a racist. Likewise, one can say that Arizona has passed a law that is an invitation to racial profiling without saying that any given Arizonan is in favor of racial profiling.

Just because they believe that a boycott is not the answer for their state does not make them bad people or complicit in what has happened by other peoples votes.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the good people of the Birmingham Bus Company did not think that the Birmingham Bus Boycott was the answer for the problem of blacks sitting in the back of the bus. I'm going to also suggest that the good people of the Woolworth's company didn't think that a boycott of the Woolworth's lunch counter was the right way to deal with that manifestation of segregation. The targets of a boycott NEVER think that it's a good idea--that's kind of the whole point of a boycott is to motivate people to change the conditions that precipitate the boycott.

However, I'm all ears. If a boycott isn't the answer and a mass exodus of Hispanics isn't the answer, what is?

Btw, I am a registered voter and I do vote in every election. You can't take a gun to other complacent voters heads and make them go to the polls. I agree that a lot of voters need a swift kick in the ass to get to the polls. There could have been a different outcome in Arizona if every registered voter did go to the polls but it is not our place to heap condemnation and group blame upon those that in fact did go vote and vote against the current administration there thereby registering their protest.

So at what point--if any--are people responsible for what happens in their locality? To use another (fairly) recent example; there used to be a country called Yugoslavia. When the Soviet empire dissolved, Yugoslavia broke up. What followed was, by even the most strict definition, a genocide of Bosnian Muslims and Croats by Serbs. I'll spare the gory details but suffice to say that in just one city, Sarajevo, which was under siege for over a year, atrocities took place daily. Serbs who were NOT involved, who wore no uniform, knew of the atrocities and did nothing to stop them. Using current American zeitgeist logic, the only people who should feel even the most trivial pang of guilt are those who pulled the trigger.

Cheers
Aj

[apretty]

my expert opinion:

i lived there, i still own a house there and i still think boycotting the beautiful state of arizona is a great idea. though, moving away is probably safest if you present 'brown' in any way.

[DomnNC]

"I get it that the Arizonans don't want any of these things to happen to their state. I fully understand that. However, it makes no sense to suggest that those either targeted by this law or horrified by it simply shrug our collective shoulders in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings."

So am I to assume that since you are so horrified by it and any other person who is horrified by it that does NOT live in Arizona are going to leave the comfy confines of their homes where this isn't an issue, move to Arizona and start a grass roots movement to get Brewer and her cronies tossed from office in the next election?

We can all raise our collective voices and scream at the injustice of it from whatever state we live in, does it do any good? NO, because the people in Arizona were elected by the majority and they will be in office until they are ousted on their rear ends by the said same collective majority!

And no, the comments here have not been "bend over backwards" to ensure that the posters from Arizona have not made to feel like they are being targeted by these posts.
Cody stated he didn't vote for Brewer, some took exception to some of his terminology, Cody even stated he was half Native-American with blue eyes. Another poster implied with their post that he was lying about it. Did I see you as a moderator take that person to task, did another moderator step in and say, whoa wait a minute, that was a little unjust and unfair? NO that was not done, what was done was more criticism was hurled his way because of wording that he used even after he stated time and again that he wasn't a supporter of this policy, so much so to the point that he just disengaged altogether. What if he was a supporter, the amount of criticism heaped upon him lost him from the discussion when something could have been said to persuade him to change his vote at the poll in the next election was lost. That is never a good thing.
He mentioned "the look" and was taken to task for using those words, forgive me but isn't racial profiling all about "a look". If they look to be Hispanic, black, purple, yellow, green whathave you what racial profiling is all about? It was completely unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard. Not all people are as educated as you, as I, as the person to your left or to your right, that does not give us the right to take an air of superiority over any one when there is a discussion going on. And yes, that is the road this discussion is taking, making some feel less than when there is no need for that when they have stated they did NOT vote for these idiots and they refuse to have their feet held to the fire with the majority who did.

Please, keep the topic to the current situation, I'm fully aware of past atrocities of people before my time and your time. It just muddles, confuses and blurs the lines of the current situation.

So if those that are so indignant and horrified about the situation perhaps as I said you should pack up the comfy confines of your current home, move to Arizona and start a grass roots effort to oust the current political regime, however you should be prepared to move to the other 22 states who are NOW also considering adopting legislation similiar to Arizona's to deal with the influx of illegal immigrants.

I don't know what the answer is and I'm pretty sure you don't either, no one does, otherwise the situation would have already been corrected. I do know that bankrupting a state is not the answer, it only creates a whole host of other issues.

I've had my say about when now, all I did was happen upon the thread and was kinda taken aback by some of the commentary directed towards other members of this site and misinterpretation of a post.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

...That pretty much leaves the mass exodus of Hispanics which I still hold would probably be the *most* effective form of protest....

I'm actually reading post by post, oldest to newest of today's post, so I may have a lot more to say on this later, but for now I want to say that I actually agree with this. To me, this puts the power in the hands of the people who are being discriminated against and allows them to make their own choices, and by doing so, effectively hurts the people trying to cause them harm. I'm all for this type of action.