"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Gemme

QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.
Of course not Gemme.
My answers below in my beloved Courier.


Why is someone saying they are not something suddenly derogatory? I am not Native American but that does not mean that I am being derogatory towards those who are by saying that I am simply not. When did 'not' become a dirty word? If someone says that they are not Queer, I do not take offense to that. They are defining their own personal self; something I cannot do. I cannot tell them they are right or wrong. That's their determination to make, yes?
Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see it


The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.



I like the way you've worded these questions. It's easier to fit my thoughts around. I have some questions that have come from yours.

If I don't choose to embrace something, does that automatically mean I am rejecting it? Really? Have we and this world been reduced to black and white thinking? It must be this or that, with no in between or thinking outside of the box?

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.
True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

And does a female bodied person partnering with a female bodied but MALE or MASCULINE brained partner still fall under these parameters?

Does partnering with someone who is not female brained mean that I am somehow uneasy with homosexuality within myself? Does that mean that, if I were to identify as a lesbian, that I could ONLY partner with female bodied and female brained partners?

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.
I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".
I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

Again, why must it be embrace or reject? Why can't something simply not apply to us?

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused.

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

Thank you QoQ! You put in words what I've been trying to express.

I had thought, yesterday, about posting something I manifestly don't believe just as an example: 'I'm not trans. I would never want anyone to mistake me for trans. I would be upset if someone said I was trans!" Now, if I said that wouldn't it sound like I was saying "trans is something I want as far away from me as possible". You can almost hear the "get it off me" even in this venue.

My beautiful wife, Belly, is bisexual. When I first came out, I identified as bisexual (until my *second* lesbian relationship because at that point I realized that unless something VERY interesting happened, I was never going to have another heterosexual relationship) but I would not say "I'm not bi! I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for bi because that just squicks me out." Firstly, such a statement would, in fact, be an insult to the woman I love and it would *hurt* her. I know this because I have seen the hurt in her eyes when lesbians make very unkind comments about bisexuals (who, it seems, are still considered acceptable whipping girls in the community). Secondly, my identity is not really defined by who I was but am no longer but by who I *am*.

Being a black woman, I don't define myself as a not-white woman. I define myself as a *black* woman. Being a geekgrrl, I don't define myself as a not-mainstream but as a geek. Being a butch, I don't define myself as a not-femme but as a butch. Being a lesbian I don't define myself as not-anymore-bisexual or a not-anymore-heterosexual but as a lesbian or, alternatively, a dyke.

You bring up an interesting point in your statement "I'm Cuban but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". I have heard Caribbean blacks make a point of saying that they are NOT American blacks--as if that were not something a decent brown-skinned person would want to be. If I were to make a point of saying I'm not Jamaican, one would be somewhat justified in saying "hey, Aj, what's so wrong with Jamaicans that you're so emphatically NOT one". Now, I've had people ask me if I was from Jamaica (because, don't ya know, ALL black people with dreadlocks are from Jamaica) and I've corrected them by saying "no, I'm an American born in America". But that's correcting a misinterpretation. I've had people ask "what country are you from" and I'll tell them the same thing, I'm an American who was born here. Again, correcting a misinterpretation. I've even had people say "why don't you go back to Africa" and I've corrected them by pointing out that given the reality of the transatlantic slave trade, it's likely that my bloodline has been here longer than their bloodline since my bloodline HAD to have hit these shores by 1809 (when the slave trade across the Atlantic ended) while their bloodline could easily have showed up on Ellis Island in 1910. But, again, that's not saying "I'm not African" it's simply correcting historical ignorance.

There's a difference and I've been so caught up in the emotions of this topic (yes, Virginia, I DO have emotions! LOL) that I haven't been able to put it into something coherent until I read your post. So thank you.

Cheers
Aj

[BullDog]

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

However, the narrow minded views of what a lesbian is or is capable of expressing in terms of her sexuality and identity that are quite often expressed in butch femme circles feels like internalized homophobia and anti-woman to me. A woman who is attracted to another woman - lesbian- or a woman having sex with another woman, just simply isn't enough- it's limited, less evolved, something people need to be clear that they are NOT. Whereas queer/genderqueer/masculine identified/male within a female body and those attracted to such people are the cutting edge, revolutionary, evolved genders.

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?

Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

There have been times when I have said something along those lines or have heard someone say something along those lines. True, it's a rarity, but like most everything...it's been done.

Although, when I might say, "I am not _____ but yada yada yada" I am not attempting to claim my status as American, femme, etc. It's simply me addressing something that is connected for me. I find it difficult to see it as being divisive, but I can follow the road your thoughts are taking here. Perhaps the words themselves aren't divisive, but the connection itself that's being made is.

*shrug*

Voila! As I was beginning to respond to you, someone came into my lobby and provided me with a near perfect example of what I mean.

The guest I was talking with was telling me about his adopted son who was recently released from prison. While in prison this man made jewelry. Jewelry that resembled traditional Native American jewelry. In our conversation, my guest said, "Now, Joe's not Native American, but the jewelry he makes resembles that style." Would you consider that statement divisive?

To me, and granted I had the benefit of being in front of this gentleman and was able to see the pride shining from his eye (only one...the other's gone...but that's another story), but this is not divisive. To me, he's saying that his son does such high quality work in his jewelry making that it could be mistaken with that designed by Native Americans. That his replicas could be mistaken for their original pieces.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

I can understand the reflex that hearing/seeing that would cause. You are right; that's not a positive statement.

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.

For myself, I don't have a definition for lesbian (except the one from the dictionary that's been regurgitated several times in here). As a non-lesbian (which I'm not fond of saying, as that seems like it makes everything lesbians versus everyone else and that's not how I see it, but I'll go with the flow for this thread), I have no right to define any lesbian's identity. BUT, I have no right to define anyone else's identity. Period.

I think the either/or thing is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on, but I see your thought processes more clearly now.

True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.

Nope, no accusations, although I do feel a bit like it's being turned into lesbians vs. non-lesbians, much like heterosexuals vs. homosexuals or butches and femmes vs. everyone else. There's so much division already, it seems unfortunate and unproductive to continue to spread the gap.

I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".

I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

My identity is like clothing. Some clothes feel better on me than others. Some are tight and restrictive and some are too loose and get caught on things all the time. I feel comfortable in wearing the term homosexual although it's not something I actively portray or seek. It just is. Lesbian feels like a pair of pants that just doesn't fit quite right. It doesn't mean they are defective pants; only that they do not fit my body and me.

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

I don't see being a non-lesbian as denying lesbianism or lesbians. I see it as knowing that that just doesn't work for me. Perhaps it's a personality thing? Because when I deny or reject something or someone, that thing or person KNOWS it. It would be more in your face. Here, for me, I just don't feel that lesbianism, as I know it, is for me.

Again, I shall agree to disagree with you.

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

Actually, it did help. Thank you.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

Oh, boy. So it's pan or omni-sexuals versus the rest of us now? *tongue in cheek*

Although.....flip your arguments, please. By claiming lesbian so strongly, are you (in general or those who feel this applies to them) DENYING every other form of sexuality and sexual expression? If so, why is this claim so different from those who say "I'm not lesbian"? I do understand about a post or two being worded hurtfully. Taking that out of the equation, aren't those proclaiming lesbian doing the exact thing that the non-lesbians are being accused of doing?

Originally Posted by BullDog

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

.....

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

I think you answered yourself by your first paragraph. It's not up to anyone to wonder WHY someone id's as they do. It's our job as a respectful human being to accept their self-identification for what it is: theirs.

Women can definitely be masculine. So can those who do not identify as women or connect with their female body. I think masculine is a connection between woman and man, separating them from each other but keeping them intertwined simultaneously.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I have a whole lot to say and lots of responses to get back to so I will be posting as soon as time permits!

I do hope everyone is having a wonderful and peaceful holiday! Happy Holidays Everyone, even you Lesbians!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!

[hippieflowergirl]

well hi,

i've read and re-read the posts that make up this thread and i have a question for any/all who might care to answer publicly or privately.

is my original post, the reply i wrote to "Victoria" in which i said that i'm not a lesbian/do not identify as a lesbian offensive? did it sound like i was saying "OMG that's disgusting! i'm not one of those people?"

i ask because when i made the statement all i was thinking was "lesbian isnt the word i use for my self." i wasnt trying to dissociate from the word because i thought there was something wrong with the term itself or with anyone who is perfectly comfortable with it. i was responding to a post that seemed (to my necessarily limited understanding) to insist that we all use the word lesbian as a self-identifier. that was it.

it was suggested earlier this week that i am patronizing in my responses and that "no one asked for" my opinion. if i derailed the conversation and/or was not welcome to participate or if i was rude to any who posted or who has been reading the thread i apologize. my excuse for my original post was based on the name of the thread and the comments of a particular participant. as for being patronizing, i can only offer the lack of human connection between typist and reader(s) as an excuse. i do not wish or intend to patronize anyone.

it disturbs me that things i've said may have contributed to the deterioration of our discussion from the sharing of our varied experiences and different understandings of the world to the semi-denial of one another out of some perceived threat, one that i dont feel ever existed.

my responses are, in part, responsible for that (mistakenly) perceived threat if, when i wrote a reply to "Victoria" or to anyone else, i said anything that gave one of you the idea that i was claiming some kind of superiority simply because i do not use the word lesbian for myself. i've read my posts and do not see a "better than" mindset in my words. though i cant promise to see every flaw in my thinking i can, however, be certain of my intent and hope it comes across. when it doesnt i will clarify. that's all i was ever trying to do. i feel that many of the questions i posed remain unanswered but i hope that there will never be a question about my own feelings about any person, here or elsewhere, when it comes to this subject.

i am writing to both extend my well wishes to all for a very happy and rewarding new year as well as to unsubscribe from our discussion. i feel as though i've shaken a box of precious objects and in doing so, done damage that i would never have dknowingly or willingly done had i realized what gifts were inside. each one of you has presented me with something that i value by sharing your passion and your opinions and your selves in this venue. you are wealth that i take with me into my work and into my negotiation of the world every day. i am sincerely grateful for each of you.

Happy New Year

kathlene

[T D]

* Bingo * I believe respect, or lack of it, is mostly at the bottom these signals of "silencing". I have had things said to me in threads at that "other" site which I found very disheartening, rude, and silencing. Because someone says something that someone else doesn't think is relevant doesn't mean that it's not of value to others.

In reality everyone who has something to say has a right to say whatever it is. It seems that saying it, hearing it, responding to it with "mutual respect" seems to be the culprit for the most part. For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is such a difficult thing to grasp and do.

Going back to enjoying my Christmas day now

Originally Posted by June

Hey! As a community member, June likes your voice, even the sassy one! I am not going to go back through all the posts, but I sincerely hope no one intimated to you that "Your opinion wasn't asked for" in thread, because, that would piss me off just as much as if someone said it to me, or anyone else.

*I* don't think it's about holding back on opinions, *I* think it's about being willing to not just type, but listen as well. Some folks aren't able to do that. But, leaving the conversation isn't ALWAYS the answer. You seem to be willing to not just listen, but also be reflective -- What a gift!

It is worriesome to me as a community member that we (general we) appear to be fighting not only for space, but to be heard. For *me* this is not, nor should it ever be a pissing contest about "less than" or "more than". It seems like it should be more about mutual respect.

"I don't consider myself to be a Lesbian, and this is why"
"I am a masculine female who prefers female pronouns"
"I don't relate to any part of my female being, and this is why"
"I am a Lesbian, and this is what it means to me"

Or even, as the Thread topic indicates:

"I used to ID as Butch, but now I ID as this, and this is why"
"I am a Femme, but lately, I have been thinking about this..."
"I don't use any labels at all, I am just me and think they are unecessary and this is why"

I think, for me, my AHA! moment in this thread, or at least two significant ones came from dreadgeek and QueenofQueens posts using the example of:

"Ewwwwww, I am not a Lesbian and will never ID that way!" and then converting it to "OMG! I can't believe someone thought I was (whatever), I am so offended"

If you just look at that, even if no post actually SAID that, several of them inferred it, and I can totally see how it could be hurtful.

But YOU, HFG, DO NOT need to take the blame for the conversation going to Hell in a handbasket, because sometimes that happens, and then usually, it corrects itself, which I think is what is happening here now.

SO! Re-subscribe to this thread! Let your voice be heard! Be prepared to defend yourself if need be, or clarify.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Blue Vegan --

Your post was reported and I have to say that upon review, I don't care for what appears to be your "tone". It appears to be sarcastic, rude and condescending.

If it is being misread, please take a moment to explain further here in the thread.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Lesbian Moderator,

June

Yes, I am being completely misread! No doubt, by those who don't know me or my sense of humor. I am very easy to read in person and have a big heart (and a playful heart too) and never, and I can say never, have the misreads and misunderstandings live that I have had in this thread. When I am finally able to completely respond to post in here, I think much of that will be cleared up. Granted those who feel just as strong about their opinions as I do mine, we may have to come to a place of agreeing to disagree. Even though we disagree with each other doesn't mean we can't share a laugh and still be friends. I can be a very serious person and still like to laugh and make others laugh, even when being serious, it cuts the tension. There is no room for hate, at least not in my world and I wish others felt the same way!

Anyone who knows me, knows how much I truly love ALL Lesbians, I have been dating a Lesbian Femme for the last 5 months, I have ex-girlfriends over the last 20 years who are Lesbians, many many friends who I love and adore who are Lesbians and I was a Lesbian for 10 years. Sometimes my Mom is a Lesbian Femme, when she's not idenifying as Bi-sexual, LoL. I don't always agree with Lesbians and their POVs, hence the discussion in this thread.

I am a very passionate and outspoken person, in person as well as online. I also take very seriously when others wrongly judge and mistreat others. It is very upsetting for me to watch and I will be responding to that when I return.

[Darth Denkay]

Bulldog,

You got me. I am one of those who has identified as masculine butch. In my mind what I was trying to get across is that - gender-wise - I don't identify as male or female, man or woman. I used masculine thinking it was a useful alternative to male or female, but as you point out, it really isn't. Female id'd butches identify as masculine, male id'd butches identify as masculine - I think it is probably safe to say that most, if not all butches identify with masculinity. So to call myself a masculine identified butch is basically redundant.

I guess I was trying to create a category so that I wouldn't have to identify myself by saying what I'm not (not man or woman) because as we know that can come across as stigmatizing those identities. I'm female in the biological sense, but I don't feel like I fit into either gender category. I guess this is one instance when, if I need to qualify myself in terms of gendered male and female, I'll have to go with the 'not' identifiers. So from now on, I will never call myself a masculine butch; masculine gives you no additional information beyond butch.

You rock Bulldog!

Originally Posted by BullDog

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.