Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Kobi]

The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me.

[Medusa]

Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.

I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend:

Originally Posted by Kobi

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

**Actually, I consider "Femme" to be my gender and it's been called into question many, many times out in the straight world, and sadly, in Queer space as well.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

**This is mostly true. I am always referred to as "she". Don't ask me about the times when I am referred to as "Mrs." and then someone will inevitably assume my last name is my "husband's".

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

**Blending into mainstream isn't something that feels good to me and I don't celebrate it. It's Femme Invisibility 101.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

**Nope, nobody telling me that I'm "less than masculine", but I'm not the "right kind of woman" by most measures of homogenous society.

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

**Varying the gender? What does that mean? Does it mean *I* get to choose who I fuck? Or does that mean that I am choosing what pronoun to call my partner? Or are you saying that Butches don't fuck men, Transmen, or Gay boys?

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

**While I *am* always a Femme, I am often thrown into a pot with straight women. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with straight females and fetishized pornography.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

**I may not be mistaken for a man, but I am almost always mistaken for a straight woman (unless in Queer space)

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

**As a femme, I've never been told I "just wanted to be a man" but I have been told more times than I can count that my attraction to Butches means that I "should just fuck men". That message is also a slap in the face.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

**Until she is. The message that I am ditzy, stupid, fluffy, a helpless babygirl, or really a straight woman who just wants her pussy eaten is also getting annoying.

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

Medusa,

You raise an some excellent points!

As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality.

Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it?

The scope of this is quite amazing.

[Apocalipstic]

I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.

While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community.

What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling?

[Apocalipstic]

ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol

What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="2"]
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

i have -- because i am a lesbian.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

All lesbians are given the you are not a real woman shit.

]

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.


i am frequently. i am apple shaped. i am also an androgynous femme. Lots of STRAIGHT women get mistaken for men too.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.

Bullshit. i am a dyke. i was told that many times by ignorant people. i was told i just couldn't accept my femininity or my place in the world as a woman.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.

HUH??? How many femmes have been ignored or ridiculed by dykes for their femininity?????

------------------------------------------

[Heart]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

[Heart]

As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.

"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question."
I have my queerness called into question routinely.

"As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question."
"Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive.

"As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine".
Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms.

"As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man."
I will be mistaken for straight.

"As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man."
I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good.

"As a femme, she will never be too feminine."
My femininity will be objectified.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by from BV site

"Is BUTCH Voices trying to tell me how I identify, what if I am BUTCH and not Masculine of Center?
(answer)-No, BUTCH Voices affirms the ability for each person to self-identify in a way that fits them best. When BUTCH Voices uses the term Masculine of Center (MoC) the intention is to quickly and succinctly summarize who we are at large. For many in our community, the label BUTCH is not inclusive, but we all unite at our 2nd National Conference under the big BUTCH Voices tent, because of our shared experiences."

If Butch wasn't good enough to "quickly and succinctly summarize who we are" why the hell is it called butchvoices? And what makes "masculine of center" any kind of a better summary especially for women ID Female ID Butches, a lot of Tomboys and the like... or even flamer butches etc etc etc etc etc etc.....? My Dad on the other hand might enjoy the conference, since he'd fit the bill "masculine of center" I'd think better than tons butches for crap sake...

I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along.

Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/

[BullDog]

I know right Metro.

Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center?

[BullDog]

Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:

http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder

In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices.

My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella."

[Dude]

I am glad some of this is getting discussed.

I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks
straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man
by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work.
I dont want to be a straight man.
Who I am is the first butch (woman)
ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman)
to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever
had has been in a male dominated field.
I want to be seen.
This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me.


In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point.
Really? really.
To what?
The ultimate male? huh?
I have the correct amount of T for me,already.


This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch.
Best way I can think to describe it.
Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that
too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of
raging butch menopause.

I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir".
The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated.

Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel
accepted and ok just how I am.
I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok.
I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place.

[Martina]

i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.

i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda.

COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above in speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

Heart,

My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine.

Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature.

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence.

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

Heart,

Bear with me while I try and ferret something out in my head here.

From what I am understanding, you are saying the exclusion of what was perceived as extremes in the lesbian/feminist movement (i.e. conflating masculinity with male and pushing out women who were too masculine, and alienating women who were too feminine, seeing them as tools of the patriarchy rather than empowered queers) was a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement.

Is it possible, that the leadership back in the 70's knew in order to successfully rebel against the patriarchy and to establish women and lesbian on women and lesbian terms, they had to remove elements that represented and reinforced the very thing they were fighting against?

Is it possible, that the leadership saw or intuited something they didnt have words for i.e. the gender/identity issues we struggle with now?

Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Is it possible, that they knew a strong matriarchial foundation was needed to withstand future attempts to infiltrate/dismantle/alter it by an insidious, pervasive, and dominant patriarchial, heteronormal ideology?

Is it possible, they knew, without a strong matriarchial foundation, the greatest threat to existence and success could and would come from within?

Given the things we now face, which have been amply described throughout this discussion, it is possible in retrospect, that what is seen as a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement was, in actuality, very prophetic and visionary?

This just keeps floating around in my head and I'm trying to get a handle on it. Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

[Heart]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

[Chazz]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

[christie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

Originally Posted by tapu

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me).

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie