Ask a trans person!

[Jet]

If you're a man, why are you trying to date lesbians?!"

I don't partner with women who think they are... or are lesbians.

There's that gray part... "transensual" women...attracted to male energy looks, physique, whatever but cannot/or prefers not to be with bio men for whatever reason. And they aren't attracted to women or the idea of being with another woman as a lesbian. (That's how transensual has been explained to me.)

A transensual is attractive to me being male as I am; I've never been a lesbian in the classic sense and never could be. Transitioning falls in place being attracted certain types of women, as I am, and having them to reciprocate... among other things.What I have wondered is why a couple who passes as a man and woman continue to stay in this lifestyle instead the straight lifestyle.

[evolveme]

First, I want to be clear that I respect the intent of this thread and am reading it quietly in order to learn more about my community. I do not mean to derail the discussion or the intended subject except that there is a concept being brought up here I think needs a small mention.

I'll use myself to illustrate. I am a lesbian. Specifically a queer lesbian. I am currently partnered to a transperson. His identity does not affect or alter mine. It never caused me to draw into question my sexual orientation or otherwise. Being with him has helped me to see more clearly the scope of my desire. Intellectually, emotionally, physically.

That scope is quite large. Based solely on gender identity or sex, I cannot tell you with whom I would *not* choose to be. The very idea now seems ludicrous. I can only tell you that, in the main, I am drawn to a given set.

So for me to read that others would exclude me, based on how I identify the main of my sexual orientation is confusing to me. It's the struggle of the bisexual. Because she is capable of being attracted to either sex (provided we are buying the binary here), does that mean she cannot choose? And because of these foundless suspicions against her, she will forever be overlooked.

I am a lesbian. My boyfriend is not.


-- Back to Transpeople.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

If you're a man, why are you trying to date lesbians?!"

I don't partner with women who think they are... or are lesbians.

There's that gray part... "transensual" women...attracted to male energy looks, physique, whatever but cannot/or prefers not to be with bio men for whatever reason. And they aren't attracted to women or the idea of being with another woman as a lesbian. (That's how transensual has been explained to me.)

A transensual is attractive to me being male as I am; I've never been a lesbian in the classic sense and never could be. Transitioning falls in place being attracted certain types of women, as I am, and having them to reciprocate... among other things.What I have wondered is why a couple who passes as a man and woman continue to stay in this lifestyle instead the straight lifestyle.

You illustrate some of what I was trying to get at in my post, though I would take issue that a transsensual femme can't also be attracted to women (as a parallel, consider bi-sexual women). There may be some transsensual femmes who would take me to task on this, and by no means do I claim, or aim, to speak for all. I think the definition of transsensual femme, as it was provided to you, is partly accurate. What I think is inaccurate is where it speaks to what a transsensual femme is NOT, because she could, in fact, also be attracted to cis-gendered males.

The key element is simply that her attraction, her primary attraction possibly, is to transgendered/transsexual individuals.

I have often heard questioned why trans individuals and their partners would want to "stay in this lifestyle" (my personal assertion is that this is my life, not a lifestyle), and usually from a place of exclusion (which is what I was getting at with the "why would you want to date a lesbian" statement). These sort of sentiments can quickly turn ugly in an attempt to remove the offending heteronormative types from queer space.

I'm not suggesting that's your position - because here you are, a transitioning male in a queer community, one in which I believe you have said you feel welcome. (Please correct me if I'm overstepping here). I do want to illustrate, though, how easily we can adopt an exclusionary mindset when considering these issues in a butch/femme/queer/lesbian forum.

There was a time I felt I didn't really belong, and I distanced myself from the community, both online and locally. It was my lover who enticed me out from the corner where I sat nursing my drink - my lover, who identifies as a lesbian, and who's identity does not challenge my own. She no more makes me a lesbian than I make her less of one.

I feel comfortable in the world - I make no distinction between my association in my queer community and my associations in the mainstream. When I feel slighted, or have experienced something I know no "straight" friend can relate to, it is to this community that I turn. I would never want to lose that.

I believe transpeople sometimes suffer a lot of grief by feeling they have to "choose." I'm not certain. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, but that's a topic I'd really like to see Thinker, Linus, Paphigleo and others weigh in on.

So that's my question: Do you feel you have to choose between the worlds? Do you have to pick a lane, a queer or heterosexual life? Is there really even a need to do so?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

What I have wondered is why a couple who passes as a man and woman continue to stay in this lifestyle instead the straight lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I believe transpeople sometimes suffer a lot of grief by feeling they have to "choose." I'm not certain. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, but that's a topic I'd really like to see Thinker, Linus, Paphigleo and others weigh in on.

So that's my question: Do you feel you have to choose between the worlds? Do you have to pick a lane, a queer or heterosexual life? Is there really even a need to do so?

Personally speaking, I don't feel I have to choose. And, no, I don't think there is a need to do so.

It may sound pretty basic, but that really is how it has been for me.......for us.

We lead a simple life together, and some of our local interactions are in places and with people who were around when I was not read as male. We don't act any differently now than we did when we were first getting acquainted with these people.

I don't feel that we should steer clear of those people who knew us "back when". I also don't feel that we should *only* socialize where straight people are........or *only* where queer people are........or *only* anywhere else.

And like MB said, I don't relate well to the "lifestyle" thing. This is my life, and I live it. Depending on what we decide to do or where we decide to go, we may end up with folks who are gay or maybe they're straight or any other color under the rainbow.

I'm not sure if I'm answering the questions of if I'm minimizing anything. That's not my intent, of course.

I've just never felt like I needed to choose.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

So that's my question: Do you feel you have to choose between the worlds? Do you have to pick a lane, a queer or heterosexual life? Is there really even a need to do so?

Omigawd, Bent, speaking as a Queer Transensual Femme---YES, YES, yes, a thousand times YES, I felt I had to choose between my own identity and my potential partners' identities, between my community and theirs, between being queer and being straight... and omg the grief. I cried for months, trying to figure out what it meant that I was in love with guys who were straight and I still needed to be Queer, trying to figure out how I could have Butches and Transmen both in my life, trying to figure out how I could ever leave my community behind--and believing I would be forced to.

It took me a long time to understand that there would be guys who did not reject me for myself, who did not need me to "make the queer disappear" in order for them to feel safe, who did not feel like my own identity was nothing compared to theirs.

It took me even longer to understand that I would find guys who would not only allow me to be myself, but who would celebrate me AS myself, AS a Femme, AS a member of a highly beloved Queer community.

e, my experiences in the community were so totally different from yours. I got it from both sides, yanno? It wasn't just the guys insisting that if I wanted to be supportive I had to force myself to be straight... it was so MANY of my friends insisting that I was a traitor for being with a man, and trying to take away not just my Femme card, so to speak, but even my Queer card.

It was a tumultuous time for me and I came through it wiser and oh, so very much sadder.

Originally Posted by Paphigleo

I cringe inside too hon, I am amazed it doesn't show on the outside.

It never shows, Nick. You keep a pleasant smile on your face every time. At first I thought I was the only one who was bothered by it! But lately even Gryph is beginning to be bothered, and yanno... he's a Two Spirit and isn't going to transition!

Bent, I wanted to say thank you for your earlier post about my questions. It is so very difficult to avoid offending people when the subject is so fraught with difficult emotions to begin with, isn't it? I know that no one ever intends to offend... but sometimes there's just so much baggage from lifetimes of not fitting in, of thinking we're the only one in the world, of feeling ostracized by friends, families, lovers.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

e, my experiences in the community were so totally different from yours. I got it from both sides, yanno? It wasn't just the guys insisting that if I wanted to be supportive I had to force myself to be straight... it was so MANY of my friends insisting that I was a traitor for being with a man, and trying to take away not just my Femme card, so to speak, but even my Queer card.

It was a tumultuous time for me and I came through it wiser and oh, so very much sadder.

Again, not to take away from the main discussion here, but I wanted to speak to this.

I imagine the degree is far less for me, Bit, but there has certainly been the expectation that I choose. I've been called a traitor. I've been caught in the cross-fire between those who are staunchly female identified, and those who need to be recognized as male (because they are).

Also, I am more frequently experiencing "lesbian-hate." You know, snark at the very idea of what Lesbian is. Now, given all of this, I do not feel myself to be oppressed. That's certainly not what I'm saying here.

My battle has always been for and about the ones I love. (And I think I can see that it's that way for you too.)

[bonne-maman]

Adding on to the experience of wondering if one has to give up ones queer or lesbian card if one is going to date and love people who are guys, transitioned physically, or not.

I am just the most lesbianey-lesbian that you can shake a stick at. I am a big ol' lesbian, and have been for 30 years (femme IDed for about 27 yrs).

I did confront what e and bit are referring to when I dated a trans guy for a short while. I was stopped dead in my tracks with shock when I realized that dating a guy would mean, well, I couldn't figger out what it would mean. After a lot of thought, (and this guy hooked me up with a friend who is long-time lesbian partnered with a trans-guy to talk to), I came to the same place that e, bit and Mr. Vent have come to, that my identity was (of course) based on ME, and my history, culture, etc, etc. It was not based on the gender of the person I was dating/loving. This seemed so odd, that I could be a guy-dating lesbian, but, it was just, for real. Gender is complicated, so everything that springs from it is complicated too.

Then I got all happy because I had another whole segment of the population to potentially date.

[Jet]

The above posts are excellent posts. But I feel I may have rattled some cages without meaning to. And please forgive me if I have.

The definition of my life is simple. I doubt I will ever find a partner again, which is beside the point. But if I were to ever become involved it would be.... first....because she is attracted to my maleness or "male energy" as the counterbalance to her femininity. I guess my view on this is very traditional. I can't tell you how many times I've been rejected by the gay community by women who make it clear to me that they are lesbians and wanted no part of maleness. "If I wanted a man, I'd be with one," is usually the answer. So I'm left asserting that this must be a classic example of lesbians and that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. But when 3 three women who ID as "transenual femmes" each tell me they are attracted to male energy without the bio bullshit, then I figure this is how it must be.

Anyway thanks for responding to my earlier posts...really well-done you guys...the bottom line is that I'm going to do what pleases me or completes me as the person that I am. And with IDs seemingly complicated and inter-woven I doubt whether I will be involved or loved for who I am which is why I distance myself do often.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Personally speaking, I don't feel I have to choose. And, no, I don't think there is a need to do so.

It may sound pretty basic, but that really is how it has been for me.......for us.

We lead a simple life together, and some of our local interactions are in places and with people who were around when I was not read as male. We don't act any differently now than we did when we were first getting acquainted with these people.

I don't feel that we should steer clear of those people who knew us "back when". I also don't feel that we should *only* socialize where straight people are........or *only* where queer people are........or *only* anywhere else.

And like MB said, I don't relate well to the "lifestyle" thing. This is my life, and I live it. Depending on what we decide to do or where we decide to go, we may end up with folks who are gay or maybe they're straight or any other color under the rainbow.

I'm not sure if I'm answering the questions of if I'm minimizing anything. That's not my intent, of course.

I've just never felt like I needed to choose.

I relate to much of what you said, particularly those things in bold. I respect each individual's desire to follow what they see as their path, even if it means turning away from the community that has supported them. I wonder if the sum of the experience for some, though, hasn't been one of support, when in fact they are just as likely to experience backlash and exclusion (but that's a different conversation).

Anyway. We live a simple life, too. We're just folks. We have to attend the company picnic (and be the only "non-traditional" couple in attendance), take the kid to her myriad social events, and go about our regular routine. I don't feel "other" until someone makes me feel so, which isn't really all that often.

I have a bit of a personal question, if you're game. At some point, it's likely you made the decision to dress in masculine fashion; maybe that first time you wore a suit to a family function, or in a non-queer social setting? How did that compare (coming out as a masculine butch), if there is any comparison, to "coming out" as male to "people who were around when (you were) not read as male?" In other words, were the experiences similar in terms of your own anxiety, or how people responded to you? (Hoping that makes sense.)

Originally Posted by Bit

Omigawd, Bent, speaking as a Queer Transensual Femme---YES, YES, yes, a thousand times YES, I felt I had to choose between my own identity and my potential partners' identities, between my community and theirs, between being queer and being straight... and omg the grief. I cried for months, trying to figure out what it meant that I was in love with guys who were straight and I still needed to be Queer, trying to figure out how I could have Butches and Transmen both in my life, trying to figure out how I could ever leave my community behind--and believing I would be forced to.
[snip]

Bent, I wanted to say thank you for your earlier post about my questions. It is so very difficult to avoid offending people when the subject is so fraught with difficult emotions to begin with, isn't it? I know that no one ever intends to offend... but sometimes there's just so much baggage from lifetimes of not fitting in, of thinking we're the only one in the world, of feeling ostracized by friends, families, lovers.

Thank you, Bit for speaking from the Partner Perspective. I read the first line of your post and turned to e and said, "of course - It applies to both sides of the relationship!" So glad you addressed this.

I agree that this subject, and all its permutations and off-shoots are fraught with emotion and potentially explosive. But I think as long as we remember to respect each person's experience, and remain open we can navigate it. Many of us (I know you, Thinker, me, and others here) were on b-f.com talking about this stuff before anyone even knew the term "cis-gendered." All we had was bio- this and that. Point being, we all had to learn along the way.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I have a bit of a personal question, if you're game. At some point, it's likely you made the decision to dress in masculine fashion; maybe that first time you wore a suit to a family function, or in a non-queer social setting? How did that compare (coming out as a masculine butch), if there is any comparison, to "coming out" as male to "people who were around when (you were) not read as male?" In other words, were the experiences similar in terms of your own anxiety, or how people responded to you? (Hoping that makes sense.)

Great question...

I would say I was *much* more anxious coming out as a masculine butch (specifically the haircut, clothing choices, etc...) than coming into my own during my transition.

And thinking about why, I suppose it's because moving forward with my transition was peaceful for me and felt like the right fit.

Does that answer it?

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Great question...

I would say I was *much* more anxious coming out as a masculine butch (specifically the haircut, clothing choices, etc...) than coming into my own during my transition.

And thinking about why, I suppose it's because moving forward with my transition was peaceful for me and felt like the right fit.

Does that answer it?

It does. Thank you.

Sometimes I have small anxiety (ok, maybe not so small) when I have to "come out" over and over again (to people who haven't seen me in eons, for example), but then I recognize that I am far more comfortable being ME for myself, than trying to downplay me for their sake.

[Jet]

Tell me, how do bio men receive you? Do some know? Do they react with kindness or are they rude or threatening? Have you been mocked by bio men who don't get it? Do you feel safe in daily life, bearing in mind that you'll exchange with bio men who may not know, but may find out.

Case in point:
I got in a fist fight and punch-and-kick bruhaha with my uncle. He's a Viet Nam vet with issues, Big Red 1, 6'4, traditional...you get the picture.