Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I don't have any problem with the title. She was writing about her own experience. For her, it is hard. She's allowed to feel that and she's allowed to say it. Other people in a similar situation are allowed to see that it's not just them, and there's not something wrong with them because they feel the same way. Even if everyone else around them is treating them like they're a terrible person for having trouble, for not instantly knowing the "right" words to use, or for failing to be 100% joyfully supportive. I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

[CockyDude]

I have been following this thread and have to admit it's been very informative and has been for the most part a great dialogue. I don't particularly care for labels but I understand the need for them at times. I listed myself as FTM (shorter than transsexual) but I am a man. Always have been except when I was a boy. Like somebody referred to a friend of theirs in a previous post, I have had NO contact with other transsexuals & very little contact with the LGBT community. I totally understand someone using terminology that could/would be offensive to others. For myself all I know is I was definately born in the wrong vessel. Just as people don't choose to be gay, I wouldn't wish this physical hell on anybody. Having said all that, IN MY OPINION this thread seemed to veer off course, to me. It seems to be centered around semantics and terminology. The title is loving a trans man can't be easy. And I'm sure it isn't any easier than being one. This thread did make me think about a lot of issues. My women have all been straight. The reveal was always harder for me than them. Course, I always waited until we were already emotionally vested and I felt she was past the point of no return (yes, I really am that cocky). However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity? In the end, the women that have loved me and that I loved me did have a difficult time. Was it because I am a trans man? Kinda. I'm also an ass, a jerk and often caustic and insensitive. Because I'm a trans man. Because I have my own demons.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by CockyDude

My women have all been straight. However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity?

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

YES. "a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner"

This is hard to tolerate.

[julieisafemme]

I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me.

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[julieisafemme]

Wow that is awful. I have not experienced that in my partner group. No one has ever said that I or anyone else was transphobic. I actually have never had anyone tell me I am transphobic. It is more an internal policing of myself. I have said stupid stuff and had it brought to my attention but always in a kind way. We had many hair discussions in my group! I never felt like it was a competition to be the best supportive girlfriend. it felt like this was the one safe space where I could speak freely and not worry about hurting someone.

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.





I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[atomiczombie]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

No flames from me. I absolutely appreciate your saying this.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by betenoire

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Yep, I have experienced something similar.

Was not impressed.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

All of this.

It happens from all sides. The support group I was banned from started out being just for non-trans partners. Then some of the trans partners felt excluded, like they weren't allowed in the group because there was something "wrong" with them. Well, no, they weren't allowed because the group wasn't for them. But they put up a stink, and no one wanted to be called transphobic, so they were allowed into the group with the caveat that they were just there to observe and the group was still a safe space for partners to talk about their feelings. Then a few of the trans partners felt "silenced" by that caveat, and you know we can't have that. I entered the group while all of this was going on, and it didn't take long at all for it to become clear that while the group's mission statement said it was a safe space for partners of transfolk to discuss their feelings, it was anything but. There was a faction in the group who seemed to be there solely to lie in wait for someone to say something they didn't like so they could pounce. By the time I was banned, the group had turned almost entirely into a competition to prove who could be the most supportive of trans people and call out the most transphobia. It certainly wasn't a place where any partner of a person in transition could express that they weren't feeling so great about that.

I found the same thing all over town. There were at the time 4 or 5 in-person support groups in Portland that I was able to track down, and every one had an inclusive policy that pretty well defeated the purpose of a support group for me. The whole concept of partners discussing transition and related issues out of earshot of trans people was apparently offensive. I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I'm glad to hear that there are such groups elsewhere, but I didn't have access to any of them.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

I put it in your rep notes just now.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

YES!

Also some obnoxious people have followed her to her blog to yell at her in the comments. I want to find each one of them and do them bodily harm.

I hope that nobody HERE is harassing her. And if you are, know this: I don't fucking like you.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by betenoire

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Just snipped part of what I need to address.

I, too, had a poor experience on a SOFFA group.

I expressed some concerns/anxieties and out of hundreds of members maybe two responded and I didn't feel very supported.

Also, there were transfolks that posted in the SOFFA group. I didn't feel comfortable with that b/c I wanted to share my personal thoughts/feelings about this experience, and I felt I had to censor myself b/c I might hurt someone's feelings.

If it is a group for SOFFA's why do I have to worry about what the transfolks thought of my thoughts? Then again, reading the past posts from the SOFFA partners, I also noticed there seemed to be an emphasis on how we can SUPPORT and cheerlead our partner's transition and not enough concern for the non-transitioning partner.

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.

[CockyDude]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.
*which seems fairly obvious now

I think some of the issues you have ran into are very common for straight women involved with trans men who are stealth (or even possibly not stealth). They are with a straight man and if you are a lesbian, they can't make a connection with you being with a man. For me personally, I could not be involved with a woman who clearly is lesbian. How would that work? For me, it couldn't. She loves women, and so do I but I am not one. I also am not active in the community and that would take a large part of who she is away from her. Just a quick thought and my .02.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femmes are just as guilty of stepping into butch trans zones alllllll the time I'm not sure why at this point anyone is being asked to take a backseat because of people aren't agreeing. Would we say that to ftm/butches/nonfemnes if they chose to participate? Femmes aren't the only ones who love transmen..

No one is dismissing the article her use of verbiage deems her less credible "to me", taking a back seat to hurtful verbiage shouldn't be expected regardless of what zone we're in...

I wouldn't like it if someone threw racist verbiage to describe their relationship I would hope that just because it's an article or in some zone that it wouldn't get looked over...

[*Anya*]

I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.

That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID.

Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed?

This would be a good poll, I think.

[Sparx1_1]

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.