Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by CockyDude

My women have all been straight. However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity?

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

YES. "a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner"

This is hard to tolerate.

[julieisafemme]

I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me.

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[julieisafemme]

Wow that is awful. I have not experienced that in my partner group. No one has ever said that I or anyone else was transphobic. I actually have never had anyone tell me I am transphobic. It is more an internal policing of myself. I have said stupid stuff and had it brought to my attention but always in a kind way. We had many hair discussions in my group! I never felt like it was a competition to be the best supportive girlfriend. it felt like this was the one safe space where I could speak freely and not worry about hurting someone.

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.





I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[atomiczombie]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Stacy

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Stacy

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

Boy do I hate sleepy typos.

[Martina]

i liked the article. While she should not have used that phrase, i don't like dismissing the article for that reason or making the discussion all about that.

What she was referring to is the cheerleading that goes on -- and the expectation of it. i think that someone struggling with a partner or family member's changes should not be burdened with expectations that they have to respond positively or else be considered a bad partner or family member.

They get to feel what they feel. In public, in a newspaper, yes, i would expect people to choose their words more wisely. But i get resenting the folks who expect one to only have positive feelings or feel guilty if not. A lot of that used to go on.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

No flames from me. I absolutely appreciate your saying this.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by betenoire

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Yep, I have experienced something similar.

Was not impressed.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

All of this.

It happens from all sides. The support group I was banned from started out being just for non-trans partners. Then some of the trans partners felt excluded, like they weren't allowed in the group because there was something "wrong" with them. Well, no, they weren't allowed because the group wasn't for them. But they put up a stink, and no one wanted to be called transphobic, so they were allowed into the group with the caveat that they were just there to observe and the group was still a safe space for partners to talk about their feelings. Then a few of the trans partners felt "silenced" by that caveat, and you know we can't have that. I entered the group while all of this was going on, and it didn't take long at all for it to become clear that while the group's mission statement said it was a safe space for partners of transfolk to discuss their feelings, it was anything but. There was a faction in the group who seemed to be there solely to lie in wait for someone to say something they didn't like so they could pounce. By the time I was banned, the group had turned almost entirely into a competition to prove who could be the most supportive of trans people and call out the most transphobia. It certainly wasn't a place where any partner of a person in transition could express that they weren't feeling so great about that.

I found the same thing all over town. There were at the time 4 or 5 in-person support groups in Portland that I was able to track down, and every one had an inclusive policy that pretty well defeated the purpose of a support group for me. The whole concept of partners discussing transition and related issues out of earshot of trans people was apparently offensive. I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I'm glad to hear that there are such groups elsewhere, but I didn't have access to any of them.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

I put it in your rep notes just now.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

YES!

Also some obnoxious people have followed her to her blog to yell at her in the comments. I want to find each one of them and do them bodily harm.

I hope that nobody HERE is harassing her. And if you are, know this: I don't fucking like you.

[nycfem]

MODERATION

A post was reported for possible concern regarding threatening language against other members. Mods have discussed, and the conclusion is:

Please remember that even though it might be being used as a figure of speech without any real intentions, it is against the TOS to make references to doing physical injury to others. Please take care to avoid these types of statements in the future.

Thank you.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

This. Seriously. Could you imagine if you were in therapy and your partner demanded to come to your sessions to monitor what you were saying? Or if they got access to your therapist's notes so they could bring up things you'd said in your "safe space" later on in an argument? I really doubt that anyone would think that was okay, but apparently in this case it's supposed to be okay.

The really sad thing is that my experience was in Portland, OR. We have a huge LGBT community here. Sometimes I think the transmen in this town outnumber the female ID butches (they probably don't, but it feels that way on occasion). I think part of the problem here is that we've gone so far to the other side of the pendulum swing. So many people just don't have any access to support groups at all. Here, there are so many they're competing with each other, and they all seem to have decided the way to compete is by being the very most inclusive of all the inclusive groups. A large part of the Portland ethic is that you can never, ever be exclusionary about anything, ever. That sounds great on the surface, but what it actually translates to is hundreds of groups that aren't actually *about* anything. We have knitting clubs where half the members don't knit, cooking clubs where half the members don't cook, I recently joined the campus Queer Club, and only about 1/3 of the membership is actually LGBT. It used to be called something like LGBT Students of {college} but they changed it to Queer Club because people felt excluded. Because, you know, we're inclusive and that means it doesn't matter what the group is actually for, everyone who feels like coming is welcome whether they care about the stated purpose of the group or not.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by betenoire

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Just snipped part of what I need to address.

I, too, had a poor experience on a SOFFA group.

I expressed some concerns/anxieties and out of hundreds of members maybe two responded and I didn't feel very supported.

Also, there were transfolks that posted in the SOFFA group. I didn't feel comfortable with that b/c I wanted to share my personal thoughts/feelings about this experience, and I felt I had to censor myself b/c I might hurt someone's feelings.

If it is a group for SOFFA's why do I have to worry about what the transfolks thought of my thoughts? Then again, reading the past posts from the SOFFA partners, I also noticed there seemed to be an emphasis on how we can SUPPORT and cheerlead our partner's transition and not enough concern for the non-transitioning partner.

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.