Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by CockyDude

My women have all been straight. However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity?

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[Greyson]

I realize this thread is focused on "Loving a Transman" in a romantic way. I do want to point out that we can love a Transman in an unromantic sexual way and this friendship love may still require a friend to go on a journey of sorts with their Transman friend.

I am a Transman. (Do not assume because I say I am a Transman that I think I am some sort of mistake or I believe myself to be the same as a cisman.) Back to loving a Transman.

I have friends, that are Transmen and I care about them deeply. Because I am part of their circle, the people they share their authentic life with, I also am expected on some level to respect their choices. If I cannot respect their choices, do I leave their life? Maybe, maybe not. I have a very strong Queer identity. I go into a closet for no one. Not even myself. For me I cannot be in the closet, stealth. Does this make be a better person? IMO, No. It is my choice to be out. Now, I also have Transmen in my life that I care about and love as a fellow human being. It can and has challenged our friendship. I can and will respect their choice to be in the closet and or to leave their Queer identity, allegience behind. (Not all Transmen make that choice, some do.)

I find I still can love this guy and support him but our friendship may be tried. I will hold my tongue and not speak freely if we are with his straight friends that are not privy to the truth of his past life. It is also my choice to decide do I stay in my friend's life or not. As they also choose do they keep a person such as me in their life.

That's it.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Deborah

I guess I have become confused as to the purpose of this thread...

It'll come around again...you know us...we have to take the long road to get to the nearest town in serious discussions.

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

Ebon is the second Transguy I've been with. The first relationship was doomed from the beginning for one reason and no matter how wonderful the other stuff may or may not have been, it was not going to work because of this.

He wanted to sever all ties with the LGBT3Q2I community as if he didn't have his birth defect all those years and he expected...nay, demanded...that I follow suit.

First of all, you damn well don't DEMAND I follow in your footsteps like that and certainly not about anything that's so life changing.

Secondly, you don't get to decide how the rest of anyone else's like plays out except yours.

Third, no matter how I identify...and it's changed over the years...I will always be a part of this community.

Luckily for Ebon, he knows and respects this.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I thought we were discussing it. What do you want to discuss about it? It will be different here than in a room full of partners. I am ok with discussions of transphobia as well as sharing my experience.

I agree that's it's all interconnected by I came in here to read about what femmes in relationships like mine had to say, not necessarily fighting over context and vocabulary.

When I first came out, I hung out at the only gay bar in the little redneck county I lived in. It had an awesome but small drag show and there was always a bevy of beautiful queens and MtF performers there. I learned their lingo and they often used 'tranny' to describe themselves and one another in jest and complete seriousness and it was a perfectly acceptable term.

Maybe it was because there were a lot of gay men there and gay men are very influential. Maybe it was because that's the only terms they knew. Maybe it's because that's what they felt best suited them at that time.

I'm not sure. All I knew was that that was another word to add to my expanding vocabulary. It was only when I came onto sites like this did I realize that others did not share that same or similar experience with the word. Before I realized how offensive it was to some, I felt it was like dyke...a word that could be used against our community by those outside of it for the purposes of hurting or shaming us, but that we could take it back and empower ourselves with it. Not so much, I guess. But part of what makes our community so unique is our diversity and, with that, comes differences in all aspects of our lives.

Originally Posted by Sparx1_1

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

Exactly!!!!

Being the partner of a transitioning person can be another coming out....or pushing in, as the case may be. A rebirth of sorts, but one we have little to no control over. For control freaks like me, it can be a scary ass thing.

I remember sitting in my apartment and just curling up and crying when I was supposed to be on my way to see him. We lived about an hour and a half apart and saw each other on the weekends and odd days off during the week. I literally felt as if all my emotions had taken flight and were swirling around me, like a tornado funnel. I felt as if everything I knew was also in that funnel, just flying around me. Close enough to reach out and touch but I couldn't grasp any of it firmly. It felt like the emotional version of vertigo, like when you stand up too quickly and that momentary spacey swirly feeling, except it didn't go away after a second. It didn't stop. Not until the relationship ended.

In the end, he was demanding things of me that he had no right to demand and I was too naive to know that. I felt that I was doing it wrong. I was not playing the right role in our relationship and that was somehow hurting him. I felt that I was secondary to what was happening to him and that I was a bad girlfriend for speaking in any way that could be determined to be or twisted to be negative. I felt sad. Depressed. Unworthy. Incompetent.

I had given up a wonderful man when I came out. I was married to the sweetest guy and I broke his heart into a million pieces. I had built my life back up from nothing, because I took very little with me due to the shame I felt at hurting my husband. So, I had come from that mindset and I'd dated some and I was beginning to feel as if I had made the right decision and that things were going well.

And then I met him.

And then I was nothing.

Walking away from that relationship hurt and I left a lot of myself on the floor. It really pisses me off when folks try to shame those who leave. We all leave. The butch leaves when the Transguy develops. Sometimes, the femme leaves when the butch leaves and sometimes the femme leaves when the Transguy makes his appearance.

We. All. Leave.

Sometimes it *is* one person's fault. Most of the time, in these relationships that don't work out, it's no one's *fault*. It just is what it is.

Ebon and I have had 'leaving' discussions and have talked about all the 'if then' situations we could think of. We know that he will change as he delves deeper into his transition and, thus, I will change.

But, Hell. Everyone changes. Change is the ONLY thing that is guaranteed. With medical advances and the slickness of tax evasion nowadays, death and taxes aren't always a guarantee anymore.

Maybe we'll mesh more and have a stronger relationship. Maybe we'll drift apart. The one thing I am certain of is that we'll always be a part of one another's lives, no matter the capacity.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

YES. "a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner"

This is hard to tolerate.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I realize this thread is focused on "Loving a Transman" in a romantic way. I do want to point out that we can love a Transman in an unromantic sexual way and this friendship love may still require a friend to go on a journey of sorts with their Transman friend.

I am a Transman. (Do not assume because I say I am a Transman that I think I am some sort of mistake or I believe myself to be the same as a cisman.) Back to loving a Transman.

I have friends, that are Transmen and I care about them deeply. Because I am part of their circle, the people they share their authentic life with, I also am expected on some level to respect their choices. If I cannot respect their choices, do I leave their life? Maybe, maybe not. I have a very strong Queer identity. I go into a closet for no one. Not even myself. For me I cannot be in the closet, stealth. Does this make be a better person? IMO, No. It is my choice to be out. Now, I also have Transmen in my life that I care about and love as a fellow human being. It can and has challenged our friendship. I can and will respect their choice to be in the closet and or to leave their Queer identity, allegience behind. (Not all Transmen make that choice, some do.)

I find I still can love this guy and support him but our friendship may be tried. I will hold my tongue and not speak freely if we are with his straight friends that are not privy to the truth of his past life. It is also my choice to decide do I stay in my friend's life or not. As they also choose do they keep a person such as me in their life.

That's it.

Love you Greyson

[Nat]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

love this post.

[julieisafemme]

I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me.

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[julieisafemme]

Wow that is awful. I have not experienced that in my partner group. No one has ever said that I or anyone else was transphobic. I actually have never had anyone tell me I am transphobic. It is more an internal policing of myself. I have said stupid stuff and had it brought to my attention but always in a kind way. We had many hair discussions in my group! I never felt like it was a competition to be the best supportive girlfriend. it felt like this was the one safe space where I could speak freely and not worry about hurting someone.

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.





I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[atomiczombie]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Stacy

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

[SelfMadeMan]

Well, the way I see it, the partners here - who are so seldomly supported as they transition with their FTM partners - might benefit from seeing that there are transmen who do realize that there's a serious communication wall. I would be the first to leave if it were made clear that our input wasn't wanted here - but I feel it speaks to the fact that some of us have grown to realize that we've been ignorant in the past to our partners transition. I didn't come in here to interrupt the conversation or take it over, but to say, this is a serious issue that I've been guilty of contributing to, but have learned to listen to. When a lot of these women are accused of being transphobic for having issues with their partner's transition, I think it helps to have transguys step up and have their backs. That's all.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

For you yes. For me I have no expectations of this being a private space to have a conversation. As long as those participating are respectful then I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take a backseat.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Stacy

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO

Boy do I hate sleepy typos.

[Martina]

i liked the article. While she should not have used that phrase, i don't like dismissing the article for that reason or making the discussion all about that.

What she was referring to is the cheerleading that goes on -- and the expectation of it. i think that someone struggling with a partner or family member's changes should not be burdened with expectations that they have to respond positively or else be considered a bad partner or family member.

They get to feel what they feel. In public, in a newspaper, yes, i would expect people to choose their words more wisely. But i get resenting the folks who expect one to only have positive feelings or feel guilty if not. A lot of that used to go on.

[CockyDude]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.
*which seems fairly obvious now

I think some of the issues you have ran into are very common for straight women involved with trans men who are stealth (or even possibly not stealth). They are with a straight man and if you are a lesbian, they can't make a connection with you being with a man. For me personally, I could not be involved with a woman who clearly is lesbian. How would that work? For me, it couldn't. She loves women, and so do I but I am not one. I also am not active in the community and that would take a large part of who she is away from her. Just a quick thought and my .02.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femmes are just as guilty of stepping into butch trans zones alllllll the time I'm not sure why at this point anyone is being asked to take a backseat because of people aren't agreeing. Would we say that to ftm/butches/nonfemnes if they chose to participate? Femmes aren't the only ones who love transmen..

No one is dismissing the article her use of verbiage deems her less credible "to me", taking a back seat to hurtful verbiage shouldn't be expected regardless of what zone we're in...

I wouldn't like it if someone threw racist verbiage to describe their relationship I would hope that just because it's an article or in some zone that it wouldn't get looked over...

[*Anya*]

I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.

That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID.

Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed?

This would be a good poll, I think.